Freedom of Thought and JW Opposers

by dunsscot 137 Replies latest jw friends

  • TD
    TD

    Dunsscot,

    Re: #1& #2 I appreciate your honesty and forthrightness. Your response to #2 however seems to border on the contradictory. You seem on one hand, to recognize the seriousness of enforcing a false teaching in God’s name while at the same time dismissing it as the natural, inevitable and small consequence of teachings formed through affirmation, negation, and then by negating the negation. The most natural solution would simply be not to enforce some of the more obviously unresolved teachings, a proposition you almost seem to agree with. As a result, I am not sure of whether you do or do not believe that enforcement of doctrinal conformity on a teaching in the processof being resolved dialectically can be rationalized as conscionable.

    Re: #3 I have a lot of problems with this paragraph. The idea that Witnesses perform anything resembling risk/benefit analysis when it comes to transfusion medicine is laughable, as the WTB&TS has, in ways that would be criminal for a secular publisher, seen to it that JW’s are thoroughly misinformed on this topic. I can elaborate if you want, but the idea that viable alternative treatments to “blood” can be presupposed to exist is a fairly good example of this in and of itself.

    I asked you in another thread to align, if you can, the respective situations of Abraham and JW’s. You have, without responding to that request, not only reasserted that comparison, you have done so to the exact same person that found it lacking, no less. Abraham acted in obedience to a clearly enunciated, direct command from God himself. JW’s, in the absence of anything resembling a demonstration of either physical or moral equivalency apply to a medical situation, a scripture written to resolve a dispute over the necessity of circumcision and adherence to other aspects of Old Testament Law. As if this was not questionable enough, they typically do this by invoking as a stand-alone construction a phrase with an incomplete predicate apart from the biblical context that completes it. They thus set a standard of adherence that is simply assumed and cannot be shown to have originated with God. How does this compare with the example of Abraham?

    Lastly, I felt that I did juxtapose the JW blood doctrine alongside the greater framework of JW teaching. It should be obvious that JW’s have on one side of the scales, some very clear scriptural injunctions concerning the sanctity of the gift of life and the severe penalty associated with unjustly depriving a fellow human of this gift. Consequently, when it comes to a minor child or some other dependent for whom one is responsible for, JW’s need something of sufficient “weight” to balance those scales and justify withholding a blood-based therapy when death is a likely result of such a course. The observations of your professor are interesting, but the question of whether adult Jehovah’s Witnesses have the right to refuse blood, is irrelevant to that issue.

    Tom

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Dear bigboi,

    Could you give me some examples of "things" that the WTS has changed frequently? I happen to think that the changes may not be as frequent as some are inclined to think.

    Secondly, I'm not sure what critical life or death matters you're talking about. Normally, blood transfusions are classified thusly. But what other issues do you have in mind?

    Sincerely,
    Dan

    Duns the Scot

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Dear CPiolo,

    I have not responded to AlanF or Farkel, it is true. But my non-response has nothing to do with non-interest or inability. (Nevertheless, I will admit that I am only a midwife of ideas, unable to actually bring them to fruition in others, but I like to assist.) Unfortunately, I am not blessed with the attribute of ipseity. :-) I am one person and cannot adequately reply to every post. AlanF was remarkably genial, but he wrote a book. In case you have not noticed, there is one Duns on this forum, but a number of individuals interacting with the Scot. Furthermore, I do have a life outside of this forum. But I don't want to bore you with that story.

    I might just add that my primary purpose at this point has been to set out my agenda and theoretical approach, while observing the methodology being employed in the discussion taking place here. BTW, all of youse folks who seem antipathetic toward theory, remember that while theory without practice is empty--practice without theory is blind.

    Bye,
    Dan

    Duns the Scot

  • thinker
    thinker

    Hello Duns,
    Can you answer me something please? If the WTS is all about Truth then why do they try to lie and deceive? I'm not talking about changed predictions or policies. What I have proof of is blatant lies and cover-ups; most of these deceptions were aimed at JW's, not the general public.

    thinker

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Beloved ianao,

    You think that I am a Witness because 'I believe that is what I should be'? I think you have misunderstood me.

    Here is my stance on this matter. Personally, I think that objective criteria primarily governs my choice to remain a Witness.

    There are a number of factors that caused me to become a Witness; some factors were objective, while others were subjective. At any rate, I now think that I can point to Scripture and show another rational agent that Witnesses have the truth. In point of fact, this event happens all the time: A Witness somewhere around the world daily shows an autonomous subject some scriptural point that causes the hearer or subject to experience "insight learning." In other words, the hearer has an "aha!" experience. Similar events are recorded in the biblical book of Acts (Acts 17 & 18), indicating that Christianity is in some sense objective from a doctrinal standpoint.

    My point is that my reasons for being a Witness are objective, I think (cogito). I think that I can point to Scripture and show why the rational agent encountering the word of Christ that I preach should become a Witness. Then why isn't everyone that hears the word convinced? Why aren't people coming into the organization by the gadzillions? As you well know, there are many reasons why most people do not respond to the good news preached by the Witnesses. While I will not discuss these reasons at the moment, I think I've demonstrated that which is to be demonstrated.

    While my reasons for being a Witness are objective in my eyes, that does not mean that I can successfully communicate the said reasons to you. So what? I think my being awake typing on this keyboard right now is an objective reality. Does that mean that I can apodictically prove that I am in fact awake right now and presently tapping the keys on this faithful old board? Descartes says that I cannot. Furthermore, Alvin C. Plantinga notes that we cannot prove there are other minds either. Nor can I prove (apodictically) that I have been alive longer than five minutes. Saul Kripke also discusses the Wittgensteinian skeptic, who may make us wonder if we can prove that 2 + 2 = 4. I have actually attended college with certain persons who thought that you cannot "prove" such a proposition, even if it is true.

    To end this email, I will just observe that I think JWs believe many true propositions that can only be apprehended under certain epistemic conditions. For instance, an argument must not only be valid or sound, it must also be compelling and cogent. In order for you to be convinced of my beliefs, you yourself must concur with certain basic beliefs of mine: My argument must seem cogent to you. If you do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God or that God exists, etc., then my logical demonstration would simply be signifiers in the wind. My inability to convince someone via argument does not mean that a Christian JW believer lacks objective criteria for certain tenets he or she holds. Paul Davies (famed astrophysicist) once claimed that there are certain things we know are true, but we cannot authenticate such facts. I think I somewhat agree with Mr. Davies. :-)

    THE END

    Duns the Scot

  • dunsscot
    dunsscot

    Dear Thinker, TD, and Farkel:

    I'll reply to your posts tomorrow. I promise! BTW, Thinker, can you please be a little more specific with your question. Some actual examples would help.

    Thanks,
    Dan

    Duns the Scot

  • thinker
    thinker

    Dun,
    I'd be happy to...

    Application No. 28626/95
    by Khristiansko Sdruzhenie "Svideteli na Iehova"
    (Christian Association Jehovah's Witnesses against Bulgaria
    The European Commission of Human Rights sitting in private on 3 July 1997.

    (A representative from the WT testified under oath): "As regards the alleged unlawful
    activities of Jehovah's Witnesses with children the applicant
    association submits that children cannot become members of the
    association but only participate, together with their parents, in the
    religious activities of the community."

    (and) "In respect of the refusal of blood transfusion, the applicant (Watchtower Society) association submits that while this is part of the religious doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, its acceptance depends on the personal choice
    of the individual concerned. There are no religious sanctions for a
    Jehovah's Witness who chooses to accept blood transfusion."

    Are these truthful statements? Or are these truthful?:

    Hence a Christian who deliberately receives a blood transfusion and thus does not keep himself from blood will not prosper spiritually. According to the law of Moses, which set forth shadows of things to come, the receiver of a blood transfusion must be cut off from God's people by excommunication or disfellowshiping.(The Watchtower January 15, 1961, page 64*** )

    Recognized by Our Conduct
    Consistent with that understanding of matters, beginning in 1961 any who ignored the divine requirement, accepted blood transfusions, and manifested an unrepentant attitude were disfellowshipped from the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses." Proclaimers, 1993, page 183-4.

    Also...

    w89 1/1 12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***
    [as originally published in Watchtower magazine]

    "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century."
    w89 1/1 12 "The Hand of Jehovah Was With Them" ***

    [as it appears on Watchtower bound volumes & CD-ROMs]
    "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our day."

    (and)

    tr (Truth book) pg.9 1 Grand Blessings from God Near at Hand! ***
    [as published prior to 1975]
    Also, as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence." And he warned: "I know enough of what is going on to assure you that, in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in."
    tr (Truth book) pg.9 1 Grand Blessings from God Near at Hand! ***
    [as published after to 1975]
    Also, as reported back in 1960, a former United States Secretary of State, Dean Acheson, declared that our time is "a period of unequaled instability, unequaled violence." Based on what he knew was then going on in the world, it was his conclusion that soon "this world is going to be too dangerous to live in."

    Why the deliberate change?

    There's more, if you'd like...

    thinker

  • Faraon
    Faraon

    Dear Dunsscott
    >There is nothing contradictory about saying on the one hand that I can and do treat my fellow autonomous subjects as "ends" while noting on the other hand that I refuse to fellowship with those removed from God's clean organization.
    Lo que pasa es que no entiendes que es contradictorio porque no tuviste una extensa educación natural en la lógica y necesitas ver la realidad. Te han lavado el cerebro y no te has dado cuenta de ello porque no has estudiado sus métodos. No te enfrentas a la realidad y vives en un mundo de fantasía porque temes examinar la verdad. En un plano quieres ser real, pero en otro vives únicamente bajo reglas emocionales. No te has dado cuenta que tu dios es un mito.
    >When Kant said that we should treat humanity (both ourselves and others) as ends, he evidently meant that we should not treat humanity as objects to be used for purely selfish ends. We are not supposed to objectify humanity or use humanity for our own selfish gain. Moreover, Kant emphasizes respect for humanity when he puts forth this ethical directive. There is no non sequitur here.
    Tu religión utiliza a sus esclavos sin respeto. Controla todos los aspectos de su vida a un grado mayor que aún el que utilizaban los fariseos en el tiempo de Jesús. El motivo principal de tanto control es el poder derivado de ello. Utilizan a su dios como respaldo de sus afirmaciones pero de hecho los cambios no los hacen bajo espíritu santo. Estos cambios los hacen solo cuando la mayoría está de acuerdo con los cambios.
    >In what way does "shunning" violate Kant's ethical admonition concerning treating humanity as ends? How is "shunning" selfish? In what way does it objectify humanity? What else is a Bible-believing Christian to do in light of 1 Cor 5:11-13 and 2 John 7-11? Check the Mosaic Law to read about further prescriptions for heretics (ala Tertullian).
    La viola desde el momento en que le quitan a la persona su individualidad al prohibirle decidir qué compañía tener. La misma suciedad de la torre del vigía reclama estos derechos para sí misma, pero no los respeta en sus miembros. Esta acción es contra natura ya que convierte a los humanos en objetos manipulados para los fines de un grupo en la cima de la pirámide. Afortunadamente, gracias a Dios, no creo ni en el dios bíblico ni en el asqueroso libro que ha causado más estragos en el mundo.
    Siento no mirar tus citas bíblicas pues ya estoy cansado de un libro estúpido que aprueba el asesinato, la mentira, la infidelidad, y otras cosas inéticas e inmorales. Prefiero las leyes humanas a las de tu ignorante dios. Si tu dios fuera juzgado por estas leyes, ya estuviera en la cárcel, o hubiera sido sentenciado a muerte.

    JRP
    If I wanted your opinion, I would beat it out of you (seen in a bumper sticker)

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Dunsscot:

    You made certain assertions in your first post. AlanF and Farkel called you on them and asked you to back those up giving examples to back up their positions. If you are to claim certain things and then fail to back up those claims, they are nothing more than words.

    You started this thread with more than an outline of your agenda and theoretical approach (whatever that means). You made certain claims and then when two people called you on them, you ignore them. (I see you have promised to answer Farkel later, but there's nothing for Alan.) You also say that Alan wrote a book and you haven't time for a lengthy reply, but in the interim, you've written a couple of books to those who've responded after Alan and Farkel.

    BTW, all of youse folks who seem antipathetic toward theory, remember that while theory without practice is empty--practice without theory is blind.

    And theories need to backed up with supporting empirical evidence or they're nothing more than opinions. Such theories put into practice amount to nothing. For example, I have a theory that if I smear my body with coconut oil and stand on my head, I will enjoy good health and long life. I may put this theory into practice, but if there is no evidence to back up my theory, my practice is empty and worthless, and I will not necessarily enjoy good health and long life. So could you please define theory for us -- do you mean this in the scientific sense or what?

    CPiolo

    The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

  • CPiolo
    CPiolo

    Faraon:

    ¡Hola! ¿Qué tal? Tengo una pregunta. ¿Porqué escribiste tu respuesta en castellano? ¿Conoces a Dunsscot? ¿Él habla castellano? Estoy curioso porque nunca he visto ninguna persona charlar aquí en ese idioma.

    Bueno, chao, ¡suerte!

    CPiolo

    The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

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