The "bodily reserrection of Christ"doctrine and John 2:19-22

by booker-t 55 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Midget:
    I think it was to do with trying to synchrete views of a bodily resurrection.
    I don't know if I'd use the term "angelification" to describing the ability to transform between corporeal and incorporeal at will. But I confess that I don't know what the correct term for that is.

    I'm not at all certain it has anything to do with the Eucharist, though there's a sense in which Paul's words about flesh and blood might be taken out of context to represent the inefficiency of the sacriment to save.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    MS:

    Ellegard's work is interesting as he makes a big case of all the (Talmud, Qumran and so on) evidence for the 1st-century-BC roots in the Jesus tradition. IMO this is important but only a part of the background (another part of it being as late as the 2nd half of the 1st century AD, e.g. Josephus, as authors such as Doherty or Price would show).

    As to the Pauline epistles, the main proponent for a late datation is Hermann Detering; see his article on http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/detering.html. It is still a ultra-minority view, but I would not be surprised if a complete paradigm shift should occur in the next decades in mainstream scholarship. Most of the traditional opinion which dates the Hauptbriefe to the 40's-50's relies on repetition rather than fresh analysis of the evidence, and such a consensus can collapse overnight.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Thank you very much for those additional links Nark...I've got to read them as soon as I get the time and am surprised that so much of the mainstream continued on just on repetition. The later dating would nicely explain why there are no direct secular references for Jesus. (or even for Paul then?)

    LT

    You're too kind a soul to completely blow me out of the water it would seem. I'm just trying to explore beyond the JW and RC views I grew up with ,so if I'm getting "lost" feel free to "yell" out.

    Leolaia

    Maybe I'm making a very tenuous superficial link with the views on the transubstantiation and how it may have contributed to bringing together the opposing views on Jesus resurrection. I realize that they were/are two distinct aspects of belief, and maybe they never did affect each others development. I'll let your vaster knowledge of history weigh in on this, and your academic bent for accuracy to take precedence.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Midget:

    You're too kind a soul to completely blow me out of the water it would seem. I'm just trying to explore beyond the JW and RC views I grew up with ,so if I'm getting "lost" feel free to "yell" out.

    Ok, now you're confused me. Why on earth would I desire to "blow you out of the water"?
    We are all entitled to our opinions, and I wouldn't say that my theories have any greater validity than anyone else's. Meanwhile I enjoy the discussions

    I can see why you might have an interest in transubstantiation. I would offer that my doctrine is more aligned with the reformed faith.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    I... am surprised that so much of the mainstream continued on just on repetition.

    MS,

    From my own experience and what I have read in Bible scholarship, I think this has really been the general pattern for hundreds of years. Most scholars do not question the general, "mainstream" frame of thought, just because they can't (or don't want to) handle too many "unknowns" at the same time. Most commentators of the Pauline letters, for instance, simply repeat the traditional options on datation and authorship and reserve their really original work for the detailed commentary. Unfortunately their position on such introductory matters (which is actually second-hand information and opinion) is then numbered as an additional vote comforting the traditional position. Thirty years ago all critical commentaries of the Pentateuch included a formal repetition of the JEDP Documentary Theory. They could mention that it was criticised by marginal scholars and bring in a few minute corrections, but as a whole they kept it, out of mere repetition. Then a critical stage was reached and the general theory collapsed, so that nobody can take it for granted anymore. So now every commentator has to really build his/her own theory from zero, as it were.

    As one who came all the way from the JWs to Bible studies, I have become used to this pattern. You repeat something hundreds of times, just because you have read it hundreds of times, then somebody gets you to wonder about the real evidence for it. That's the way I eventually questioned the JW doctrine, years ago, after repeating it so many times. When I came to this board about one year ago I faced some live radical criticism of the NT for the very first time (thanks Peacefulpete in particular), and I first reacted by repeating what was the "mainstream" view, especially on the Pauline epistles. This gradually led me to wonder again, "what do I really know?", and dig a little more into it. Now my impression on the "mainstream" consensus as regards the Pauline corpus is that it is really weak, and subject to change dramatically anytime.

    The way Bible scholarship in general progresses is not so different, I guess, from my xJW story. It is slowly emerging from an apologetic catechism, gradually in general and sometimes through dramatic crises.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    Nark

    Its so true. In all spheres of human knowledge, there's always been a succesive boom in understanding when someone questioned the accepted view and thought along a different path. I have alot of catching up to do (and I'll have to forget about what I read in Friedman's book Who Wrote the Bible? --- Thats where I first was introduced to the JEPD explanation). There are some great posters with a variety of stengths on this board and I'm glad I found JWD.

    LT

    Sorry for the confusion. When I wrote my questions, I also wondered if they offered any historically valid insights. If those opinions were plainly out of step with whats known about early christian history, then they could be easily refuted or "blown out of the water". My mistake was referring to myself instead of the ideas. I know you'd never make a personal attack LT, and what I was also trying to say was that you'd probably hold off from saying the ideas were totally bogus out of courtesy.

    Does the reformed view opt for a purely symbolic meaning to the eucharist? I'm not attracted to the insistence of the RC church on a real presence in the eucharist. If there's anything positive about growing up in a religiously divided home is that I've learned not to have a dogmatic frame of mind.

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