A friend of mine who is a dr. figured it out, statistiacally. Out of about 7 million people, at LEAST 80 per month are going to need blood without dying, that's low, he only averaged the ones who would almost definitely die without blood, not the 50/50 folks. This is a low estimate, as it does'nt even take into acct. the children who are'nt publisherss, Ex or inactive dubs who still go by the no blood policy, etc. Think about it. In a city of 7 million (NYC is just a little over 8 million) How many accidents, disease, etc. happen everyday? Trust me, worldwide, that stat is LOW!!!
Somebody- Please Help Me UNDERSTAND?
by upside/down 47 Replies latest jw experiences
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upside/down
You know this is another subject I don't really understand. Blood. What's the big deal! I went through a very traumatic event when my son was 2 that put me through the whole debate of blood- he was in a BAD accident. To be honest I've worked for a lot of doctors and I'm hard pressed to find one that doesn't agree with the Dub's from a MEDICAL standpoint. I would never want blood, not due to a antiquated religious requirement but strictly from a SANITARY viewpoint. Get over it! There are NUMEROUS alternatives to blood and they are readily availble even more so than blood itself! It cannot be said with any certainty that ANY individual died for not taking blood, that's absurd. Then do I get a guarantee if I take blood- on the contrary they make you sign a waiver that blood is a dangerous substance.
One again, the Dub's have put such a bad taste in so many peoples mouths that the whole subject just pisses everyone off and gives us even more reason to "hate" their ways and org.
If you don't want to take blood DON'T- If you want to DO. Why the Dub mentality to shove either "for " or "against" down anyones throat? And please don't bring the "children" into this, the parents decide what's best for them like it or not (should every fat person, smoker, alcoholic, yeller, physically ill, mentally ill etc. person lose their kids?) I mean after all those kids are in "danger". I don't buy it.Some people just like to meddle in other peoples business and especially the self rightous want to make others submit to their version of what's the ideal environment for kids (there is no ideal). We've all had it bad to one degree or another(some really bad). But when we turn 18 guess what? We are in charge of ourselves and can change things if we like!
Like I've said before there are plenty of "legit" things to pick on and find fault with with the Dub's- It's like shooting fish in a barrel! I just don't like it when instead of the rose colored glasses we once had when we were just "pups" in the org. that we now have lenses so cloudy as to see nothing clearly. Heaven forbid we should demonize the Dub's to the degree that they demonize EVERYONE who is not just like them. That would be sad.
U/D
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SixofNine
Sorry upside/down, you're comments on blood are recklessly irresponsible, uninformed, and just-plain-wrong. The simple, straightforward fact is that blood saves lives. There are NOT readily available substitutes. (this would be the place for you to name them if they exist, btw)
ALL medical procedures have risk, ALL transplants have to fight rejection. We don't choose either a) to do nothing, or b) a statistically far less effective treatment, simply because the best treatment comes with risk, that would be in a word, moronic, and in a phrase, pissing on the sanctity of life.
Your comment alleging that most doctors agree with the JW's on blood, is either a baldfaced lie, or else you've bought into the most shameful of Jehovah's Witness propoganda. I suspect the latter, but either way, you should be ashamed.
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avishai
be honest I've worked for a lot of doctors and I'm hard pressed to find one that doesn't agree with the Dub's from a MEDICAL standpoint. I would never want blood, not due to a antiquated religious requirement but strictly from a SANITARY viewpoint. Get over it!
GET OVER IT??? Have you ever lost someone due to no blood or adequate medical treatment? I HAVE!! Dont' you DARE tell me to get over it. I suspect you have found things wrong, but not some of the horror many of us have had too. Hence your lackadaisical attitude "Sure their wrong, but just move on get over it" I had to listen to my 4 yr. old brother wake up screaming every night right after my dad died slowly in front of me, blood very likely would have saved him. OK? My brother woke up screaming because the elder would'nt tell us the guy who often watched him molested kids. Oh, and his dad had just died. Thanks for accessing my issues. There are other facts out htere besides your "viewpoint"
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avishai
And please don't bring the "children" into this, the parents decide what's best for them like it or not (should every fat person, smoker, alcoholic, yeller, physically ill, mentally ill etc. person lose their kids?) I mean after all those kids are in "danger". I don't buy it.
I WILL do what I want, and I'm bringing the kids into it. Teh kids you are talking about usually are'nt in IMMINENT DANGER. If they are, yes, and alcoholic SHOULD lose their kids, if a person, mentally ill or not is abusing their kids THEY SHOULD lose them, and often do, so your straw man argument won't wash here. If they want to let their kids die, kids who can't make a commitment of their own to faith, no matter what the dubs say, a five year old, hell even a fourteen year old cannot understand the true stakes of dying over an archaic tradition. Hell, I would've gladly died at 12 for the JW's. I would'nt now. Why are your posts so callous?
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upside/down
Yikes Bro (or Sis)?
Look I'm not a doctor and I'm not going to argue details of opinion. But to insinuate that I'm lying- I believe violates the purpose of this forum. I've worked almost exclusively for doctors (not in medicine, but for them) At Creighton University in Omaha NE and at UCI Medical Center in Irvine CA, Mission Viejo Hospital, CA, Myrtue Memorial Hospital IA, UCLA Medical Center, CHOC (Childrens Hospital of Orange County), Kaiser Permanente in Southern California and Sanai Childrens in Denver CO. My perosnal physicians in Iowa, Nebraska, California and Colorado (when I lived there), and the trauma surgeons in Omaha that worked on my son (incl. plastic surgeons too!) after his accident.
I'm not sure what conditions are like in Equatorial Guinea, but here in the good old USA the sale of blood is also a "snare and a racket". It's big business. Whenever there is "big money" there is corruption. ALL of the medical staff I've dealt with (and had the opportunity to discuss the subject with) agrees they would rather recieve a CLEAN substitute to blood. It is a fact at these facilities I've mentioned that people who have volume expanding blood alternatives do SIGNIFICANTLY better and heal faster with NO chance of blood borne pathogen being passed on. I have never heard of (although in other countries I don'know) here (in the USA) there not being an alternative to blood. I even went in for a minor procedure recently and their paper work (in a small doctors office) noted that some people for religious or personal reasons opt not to take blood. "They" say there are only two groups of people who don't take blood- Dub's and Medical Pro's. But many people in the States are now opting out and even Insurers are seeing the actuarial statistics that bear this out- and trust me insurance companies are only concerned with the bottom line- time will bear this out.
Once again I feel the Dub's and their misguided efforts to "be clean" have given the whole subject a bad rap. I mean who isn't outraged when some (usually new) Dub runs from the Doc's and puts their child in harms way due them "possibly" getting blood. This is what sets rational people off. Or stories of Dubs being Df'd for taking blood. Or even feeling extreme guilt and recieving shunning because blood was FORCED upon them. Here in the good old USA, you still have the right to choose (for the most part) what you want and don't want when it come to medical treatment. Did I open a can of worms?
Again- If you want to take blood TAKE IT. If not DON'T. Just don't be so condemning and attribute my view to being a victim WT propaganda. Not everything that is printed by the WTS is a lie (see my comment on conspiracy!). I am capable of independent rational thought. And I can be persuaded to learn new things. But in this instance I fear it is you that has rushed in and unloaded a heavy bias. I'm not a liar!
U/D
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avishai
You write very well, I'll agree to disagree!! But, you asked for understanding!! Sorry if I unloaded with both barrels
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upside/down
Avishai-
A true "gentleman".
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SixofNine
So what, pray tell, are these "alternatives to blood"?????? Inquiring minds NEED to know! Please be sure that your answer is a product/products that can be used in an emergency due to massive blood loss. Please be sure that your answer is a product/products that provide a statistical equal or advantage to use of whole blood.
Also, while you protest that you are not influenced by Witness propaganda, I notice that you said "ALL of the medical staff I've dealt with (and had the opportunity to discuss the subject with) agrees they would rather recieve a CLEAN substitute to blood". Now, I'll refrain from calling you a liar, since you're obviously thin-skinned about it ;-), but you ARE editorializing; "CLEAN" in reference to blood/substitutes is not medical terminology. One has to wonder what mind virus has you referencing "dirty" or at least "contaminated" in regards blood? Skeered of a little HIV?
Would you similarly reject a kidney transplant or a liver transplant because of the putrid filth that is another human's tissue and fluid? Oops, me thinks me editorialized :-D
As for the business of blood, well I suppose if there is some injustice being done, it should be righted. But what in God's elusive name does the business of blood have to do with the efficacy of using blood medicinally or the biblical morality of using blood medicinally?
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upside/down
Listen up,
Your adept at the internet, look up the alternatives yourself, as I've stated I'm not a Dr. They used alternative treatment on my son when he was critical due to a severed arm, leg and gaping neck wound.Did the doctors lie to me and make up that they gave him an alternative (paranoid delusional?). So the entire medical profession as well as the Dubs are liars. Call a surgeon or an anesthesiologist and ask them. they're the ones who gave whatever it was they gave my son.
I've refrained - but YOUR ignorance is showing. A blood transfusion is the same as an organ transplant. both are 100% foreign substances that will be rejected without proper medication and treatments. Blood merely serves as a volume expander(my doc explained this to me - not the Dubs, but damn- he's probably in on the conspiracy to- F'n liar). There are numerous cases (non JW) of people with massive blood loss who survive, some with some without a trans.(again it's the individuals choice).
"Thin-skinned"-calling me a liar without any proof or witnesses- Are you sure you're not an elder. I may be ignorant, but a liar, NO! It serves no purpose to lie especially in this forum, which is seemingly dedicated to exposing lies, or at least discussing what appear to be lies (perspective is everything). LIE is a very strong word, it betrays a bad motive, of which I assure you I don't have. "That's my story and I'm stick'in to it." I agree that the "religious" argument for not taking blood is baseless. Discussion with you is like ones with my wife- we end up arguing even when we agree, only to realize later it was because we had different ways of coming to the same CONCLUSION. Typical man woman stuff, that we eventually laugh at ourselves about.
Blood IS contaminated in that it is univerally considered a hazardous substance. I've been certified with the state of California (for part of my business) in disaster scene clean-up, which by law requires a special certification in blood and blood borne pathogen clean-up (auto accident, suicide and crime scene stuff). Blood is flat out dangerous. Again I understand many treatments can be just as or even more dangerous and people can choose to do it- no problem.
Your condescending attitude of me not using medical terminology REEKS of a Dub style put down!
As for "skeered of a little HIV". What the hell does that mean? What are you so macho and manly as to not be scared of this pandemic. Whether someone wants to take blood or not- it's their choice, I don't judge (for that matter if you bungy jump or base jump, smash-up derby etc.) it's your business.
For the record my father is HIV positive and has AIDS (lives in Long Beach, CA). Hell ya I'm scared- I guess I'm not tough enough to stare death in the face and snicker, yet.
And finally I think you confuse "tact" with being "two-faced". That's (being two-faced) what takes place at the KH. And I'm sorry but being tactful and aware of other peoples feelings is never a show of weakness or compromise. It's just plain decent. What's so wrong with just being nice (seems to be becoming my "mantra").
Nuff Said,
U/D