Mormons phoned for the last time - I hope

by philo 57 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  alex

  The mind-control games are very very very very much the same between Mormonism and JWism. I've lurked here for a while and thought I'd introduce myself.

  My name is Alex and I'm an unbelieving Mormon who lives in Utah. I used to be very active. I served a 2 year mission. I was a Bishop's counselor and I know the organization very well and several friends of mine have fathers who are in the Mormon equivalent of the "Governing Body". Then about 15 months ago I discovered that the Book of Mormon is fiction and that unraveled my faith. I then discovered many other issues which also didn't make any sense except to say that Mormonism is a manmade organization. Now I consider Mormonism to be a dangerous mind-controlling organization and I want to get out.

  I would like to find out what you all think and how your organization is structured because you exJWs have such a similar story to us exMormons. How did we all get stuck in a mind-controlling organization? Fortunately I'm still young and able to break away. Its got to be hard on those who are much older.

  If you ever have any questions about the real scoop on Mormonism but you don't want to offend Mormon friends, co-workers or the missionaries then please let me know. All of my family is still in the religion and its been very difficult for me. They believe that I have rejected God and that I'll be damned because I've given in to Satan. I still try to live a good life but they'll never accept this as long as I don't once again become a true believer in Mormonism.

  regards,

  Alex
• 

  Mulan

  Welcome, Alex. About a year after I left the JW's, I went to work at a scrapbook store, owned and run by a Mormon family. Most of the employees were also Mormons, and about 8 months into my job, I quit, realizing I would never really be accepted there, and anything that went wrong had to be MY fault because it couldn't be one of their own. I just got sick of being blamed for things I hadn't done, and "kissing the owner's butt" everytime she walked into the store.

  Anyway, shortly after I started there, they found out I was an ex JW, and were all very interested in what had happened. They were licking their chops, I'm sure, thinking I would now join them. I assured them I was NOT looking for another place to go, but they kept at me. I would stress things that I knew they believed too, as being reasons for my leaving, like "they are the only true religion" and other things.

  I learned during that time, that they do drink caffeinated beverages, like Coke, and Mr. Pibb, and that coffee, the EVIL drink, has "many other bad things in it than just caffeine." I had to stifle a laugh. I asked about missionaries and why those 19 year old guys are called Elders. Not a satisfactory answer.

  At this time, there are two Mormon missionarie living next door to my cousin, in an nice apartment building. I see them arriving home quite often, and they are really nice young boys. They drive a very nice car, with bicycles on the back. I about died laughing the first time I saw that. They are obviously fellows with rich family, but still have to give the impression of being poor, by using the bikes.

  It's all nonsense. All religions are the same, with different weirdness in each. But all ultimately have the same ends, I think. The people can be good, and they can be crummy. It's the hearts that matter.

  Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)
• 

  Francois

  Wasn't the location of the golden tablets revealed to Joe Smith by a white salamander? I know there's a white salamander in there somewhere, but I disremember just where.

  Do any of you know?

  Franc

  Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
• 

  ianao

  http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
• 

  reagan_oconnor

  iano: thanks for the link.

  I saw this:
  

  In 1823 Joseph had another heavenly visitation, in which an angel named Moroni told him of a sacred history written by ancient Hebrews in America

  So, is this where the name "Mormon" originated?

  
  I am the master of my fate/I am the captain of my soul.
• 

  alex

  Supposedly an angel of God named Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith in 1823 while he was living near Palmyra, New York. Its said that this angel told him that God had a work for Joseph to do in translating an ancient record of the ancestors of the American Indians into English and to eventually organize Jesus's true church on the earth. Joseph told about lots of visits from angels and finally he got the book translation finished in 1829. Most of this book was supposedly written by a prophet/historian named Mormon who lived around 330 AD in the Americas.

  The Book of Mormon story is about two eras of time. (1) A group of people called the Jaredites left the Tower of Babel (soon after the flood) and came to the Americas but eventually became wicked and killed themselves off in civil war around 600 BC. (2) Around 600 BC God led a group of Israelites out out Jerusalem before the Babylonian captivity era. This group came to the Americas and split into two groups - Nephites (righteous) and Lamanites (wicked). Since the Jaredites were all gone the Americas was completely empty except for these two Hebrew/Jewish groups that always had wars and contentions. God always protected the Nephites if they were righteous. Even Jesus Christ is supposed to have visited after his resurrection for a week to organize his Church. Then the people live in righteousness but eventually all hell breaks loose and they become wicked. So God tells a prophet named Mormon to write down an abridgment of some of the events, prophecies and words of prophets who taught the Nephites during their 950+ year history. Thus the book is called the Book of Mormon but it was written in some language called Reformed Egyptian. Mormon died at a last great battle where all but a few dozen Nephites were killed. Mormon had given this book (written on gold plates) to his son Moroni who then buried it in the ground on a hill near Joseph Smith's home. After Moroni died he was resurrected so he could tell Joseph where to get the plates. With the plates Joseph was given some interpreters and given spiritual gifts by God so he could translate this record into English. In the Book of Mormon its promised that a knowledge of the Americas would be hidden from the rest of the world until about the time of the coming of Columbus. So essentially this means that if the Book of Mormon is true then the American Indians are descendants of the Lamanites and actually of Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite descent too.

  So the whole religious movement got started around this book and people were told to study it and ask God if it was true. Once they felt it was true then the fear tactics were used to keep them in line and equate "following God"="following Joseph Smith". Joseph organized the Church known today as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (nicknamed the Mormons). Eventually the dogma of the Church being God's kingdom on earth unfolded and this fear tactic keeps the Church strong hold on its members and the members are taught that the Apostles are indeed true prophets and that God will punish them if they don't follow the teachings of the current Apostles but if people will follow them then they'll goto heaven since the Apostles speak for God - especially when speaking in Church conferences or in Church publications.

  Over the years the Apostles (also known as THE BRETHREN) consistently taught that the Church members should convert the Native Americans and they always called them Lamanites or Israelites since they "knew" that this was the ancestry of the native Americans. The Book of Mormon makes it clear that in the last days (i.e. the time before the 2nd coming of Christ) that the Church members would be responsible to bring the gospel to the Lamanite descendants. Therefore the BRETHREN have consistently preached the importance of proselyting to the Native Americans.

  But over the course of the past century scientists have shown in the fields of archaelogy, anthropology and linguistics that this is bullshit and that the ancestors of the Native Americans were Mongol/Siberians. In addition most recently advances in Genetics and DNA studies are confirming the view of the archaelogists, anthropologists and linguists.

  Since these evidences have come forward the Brethren have stopped calling the Native Americans LAMANITES. Mormon scripture teaches that what the Brethren says is God's word so they are being really careful about what they say now. Instead they let the scholars at BYU do all the talking since they aren't the Brethren and anything they say can be discredited later as just being their opinion rather than the word of God. The scholars at BYU use incredible mental gymnastics to explain away the scientific evidences -vs- what the Brethren have said. When I've brought up quotes to them of what the Brethren have said their reply is something like 'oh that was just his opinion' or 'that Apostle is not an expert on anthropology but God has given him spiritual keys'. In addition these Mormon scholars like to also paint the picture that the scientists don't know much and that they are quite confused themselves. These Mormon scholars also give alternative theories like (a) the Book of Mormon story was just about a small area in the Americas, (b) the Book of Mormon Lamanites mixed with the Siberia/Mongol people soon after arriving here. Both of these alternative theories are total bullshit based on what the Mormon scriptures and leaders have consistently taught as being FACT.

  Personally I couldn't accept these mental gymnastics (also known as lying) so I concluded that the Book of Mormon was fiction and that Joseph Smith was a liar. Slowly over the past year I've also lost my belief in Jesus Christ or God and now consider myself a deist or agnostic. I believe in a Supreme Being but I have no idea what he/she/it is like and how he/she/it operates. I respect the beliefs of others and try to live a good life. I want to be a good member of society and live a good happy life because this may be the only one I get.

  In addition to the Book of Mormon problems there is a whole laundry list of issues that destroy the foundation of the Mormon religion. But the Book of Mormon is issue #1 because the Church consistently says over and over again (even to the present time) that the Church is true if and only if the Book of Mormon is truly a record of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas.

  Thats why if you ever want to set a Mormon straight don't get out your Bible but use the Book of Mormon. You will succeed if they are honest and if you get some assistance. Prove to a Mormon that the Book of Mormon is fiction and you will definitely destroy their belief in their religion. Any other method will simply fail - especially if you take the Evangelical way of just using the BIBLE.
• 

  alex

  Back in the 1970s and 1980s a closet unbeliever in Mormonism named Mark Hoffman planned a scheme to expose the Church and get rich at the same time. He made a bunch of forged documents about early Church history, paid people to help build a story around each document and sold them to the Church for some money. At first Hoffman created documents that would make the Church look good and "prove" to the world that the Book of Mormon was true. Church scholars determined that these documents were genuine. This resulted in a few photo opportunity of him with the First Presidency (the Senior Apostle and 2 other Apostles who are selected by this Senior Apostle to preside over all organizations, programs, activities and teachings in the Church) and a good amount of money from the Church. But then once he got firmly established credibility and a good amount of money then Hoffman started producing documents that embarrassed the Church. One of these was known as the SALAMANDER LETTER where Joseph Smith claimed that a Salamander gave him the Book of Mormon. Hoffman was demanding more money and the Church was eager to buy embarrasing documents and quitely hide them away from public view. Well somebody caught on to Hoffman's fraudulant scheme and two people died in bombs that Hoffman prepared to keep them from talking. The Church quickly got rid of all the evidences they could of their dealings with Hoffman.

  So this whole white salamander idea is all a hoax as part of a scheme by Mark Hoffman to get rich and to discredit the Church. Eventually even Hoffman himself admitted it all was a hoax.
• 

  philo

  SusanHere,

  I'm enjoying learning all this from you, although I have to admit, every point you clarify makes me dislike this religion more.

  It seems I understood the first/christian names issue correctly at least. Any difference we have, seems to be in the analysis of it. Still, you did point out the controlling aspect. I find it a brutality to the individual, but in a cult context, very understandable.

  The way JWs are more sophisticated, here, is by not having any organisational teachings which appear to attack the individual. Instead, levels of ministry activity (measured in hours) are accorded respective status: aux-pioneer, pioneer, sp-pioneer, missionary. This is, in a sense, a ladder of self-abnegation. It may continue in the direction of real power with positions such as: Elder, CO, DO, Bethel Elder, Branch Committee Member, HQ staff, and many more. I am not talking about unselfishness in these men, I mean the shedding of values, and sacrificing conscience with each new step up.

  It is so much about internal status with JWs, but that status is only 'on loan' because you can be busted in one day, so, far more regard is paid to the organisation's smooth running than the individual conscience.

  philo (put me down for celestial hell, please)
• 

  SusanHere

  Hi, Mulan,

  It sounds like you have had a rough time of things since leaving your religion. Unfortunately, some people are overly-zealous in their attempts to help newly-unchurched individuals find another spiritual home and it would appear that you ran into some of those. Well-meaning though they were, it can be more than tiresome, especially once you have stated your desire to be left alone on the subject.

  As for being "blamed for everything and having to kiss up" could that possibly be partly because you were the "new kid" and hadn't proved your merit yet? Having moved many times and having therefore to change jobs many times also, I know how it is to be the new one. Also, Mormons tend, like JWs, to clique together far more than most other religions, due to the common bonds of sisterhood and fellowship unique in both relgions. Even if someone came in after you, if she were LDS and you weren't, it would naturally be easier for them to warm up to her easier than to you. Not fair at all, but human nature, which of course we are supposed to be rising above. Most of us make a real effort to do so, but some make more of an effort than others, as in all religions.

  As for Elders, I won't try to explain that, since I'm sure I'll only repeat what was already not sufficient. It boils down to one of those, "That's just how it's done." situations every religion in the whole world plenty of. The reasons make perfect sense to members, but are beyond the grasp of most outsiders who do things differently in the religion they are more comfortable with. Best to just say, "Potato, potAHto, tomato, toMAHto," and live in peace.

  The car is another matter. The Elders who drive cars on their missions are not "rich kids" from rich families. They are not allowed to drive their OWN cars, nor their family's cars. Those cars are the mission cars, and are assigned to them if they are in an area that makes it necessary for them to have one. The bike carrier on the back is not to give a false illusion of poverty but to allow them to change to their bikes once they have driven to the area where they will be going door to door that day.

  Mulan, I know you have been burned by your religion, and possibly by members of the Mormon religion, too, but please try to have the love of Christ in your heart so that you are able to give good people the benefit of the doubt rather than being so quick to judge unfairly and harshly.

  I hope this clarifies a few things for you!

  Susan
• 

  philo

  WOW Alex!

  That's great stuff. It seems the mormons have a far far deeper fictional fabric than the JWs. It all makes so much...well you know.

  I hope you keep posting here, so many similarities, and so much t9o compare. I have a book of Mormon, but can I be bothered to read it, can I heck!

  philo