Just got something ... thought it might help

by RobertPalmer 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  RobertPalmer

  Was just out at church and came home picked up my bible and read some thing. It really jumped out at me so I thought I would share it ... it never made sense to me before it was always very confusing. If it confuses you wait for the explination because i feel it may let you see what I saw in it. In Philippians 2:5 it says: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking on the form and likeness of a bond servant, and comming in the likeness of men.

  The bit where it says he did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, jumped out at me. When some one steals something, they take it, they take it away from the owner and they take it to them self. Here it says Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. He did not consider that he was stealing by saying he was equal to God. If we were to say we were equal to God we would be stealing, we would be taking something that belonged to God, and taking it to our selves. If we did that then it could rightly be said of us we were stealing from God. It is saying here of Jesus he did not consider he was stealing by saying he was equal to God, because he was. But he made himself a servant, comming in the likeness of men. So that is how we should think, God has given us his spirit, and great blessing, but we should be willing to serve, to take on a servants attitude.

  Why is it then that it says "therefore God has highly exalted him and given him a name above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every toungue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father".

  It is not because he humbled him self to the point of death that he received the name, which I had always thought. He already had it. The word "Therefore" refers to what comes before not just the single verese before but all of it. Jesus did not consider he was stealing by saying he was God. That is why he has the name at which every knee should bow. The way I read it is, Jesus said he was God, he did not think he was stealing by doing this, he became a man, was obedient until death, to save us. An now he has a new name, which is highly exalted (he did not have it before, because Jesus was not previously a known name for God). That is why all tongues will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, because the name Jesus is a name of God. To further suport this I once did a study on the word for Lord used in Jesus Christ is Lord. Lord is the greek work Kyros. It is Kyrios, the NWT translates the word Kyrios to Jehovah everywhere but not here. But Jesus is Kyrios, Jesus is Jehovah, but it is his new name to which every knee should bow. The new, and highly exalted name of Jesus. You are not stealing from God by calling Jesus Kyros, Paul did not think so.
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  ko38

  Huh?
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  kwintestal

  Interesting how the NWT puts it that he didn't want sieze power and be equal to God.

  Kwin
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  Will Power

  The reason tho one should look at these types of NWT passages - is to see how they are very selective with additions, translations, and insertions.

  Matters not what or how you interpret with your own heart between you and your god - but has dishonesty swayed you one way or another?

  By their own history of printed words, the WT is guilty beyond doubt in so many instances of misleading, lying, and stumbling the innocent.

  Will
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  peacefulpete

  Robert Palmer, welcome. First I'll just make a comment about Philippians as a whole. It is generally accepted as Pauline tho not by everyone. It is quite obviously a composite of at least 3 separate letters that were grouped together, eventually becoming one text. The Christological hymn in chapter 2 that you are discussing is very early material being quoted by the present author (Paul?). The Christ character in authentic Paul is a complex picture. He appears to be among the first to merg a Jewish "Joshua/Jesus" typology with a mystical heavenly Christ Savior, a very fresh idea that had the attention of the nonJewish audience familiar with other mystery cults and at leat aware of Jewish expectations of a coming "wisdom" "messiah" figure. The 'name' bestowed upon this Christ by the highest god is "Jesus". Less sophisticated readers familiar with the later narratives in the Gospels and other traditions missed the point, asssuming this figure was a historical person in palestine named Jesus from birth.
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  Forscher

  This is a sad case of too much being read into a scripture by people. First of all, the word translatied as "robbery" is the only occurence of the greek word "harpagmos" in the scripture and its meaning is not well understood. Because it is found in connection with the word "morphe" (form, as in essential form of), it is almost alway turned into a "proof text" on the trinity by one side or the other in the trinitarian debate and the essential meaning of the verse gets overshadowed. When the context of the verse is considered, the author meant for the reader to be impressed with the need for a Christian to humble, just as the Lord Jesus was. Jesus existed in heaven having the same essential form as God, but was humble enough not to hang on to, or "seize", this equality with God in nature (remember that, whether he was God or not [I believe not], the very nature of existence in the spiritual plane itself implies a form of equality for all spirit creatures). The HUMILITY is what is being here emphasized.
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  Carmel

  Check your concordance for the words "image" and "mirror image". You may find that Jesus never claimed to BE God, but was the mirror image or "likeness thereof". Being the perfect image, is tantamount to being God in a perverbial sense but not in an absolute sense. Hence He, Jesus could claim to be of identical mind and likeness and be the only thing we would ever know about God. He is not the only "messenger" to claim to be a humble servant while claiming to "be God".

  carmel
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  euripides

  Welcome.

  You have stumbled across a highly "controversial" passage which marks what many scholars feel is the beginning of Christology. This is not an easy passage, in fact its translation is quite problematic. I have an entire volume of essays devoted to this passage edited by Ralph P. Martin and Brian J. Dodd called Where Christology Began: Essays on Philippians 2, published by Westminster John Knox press. Martin has made study of this passage one of his lifelong works. I highly recommend the work for those interested in this topic.

  On the word harpagmos, translated "robbery" sometimes, Danker's revision of Bauer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament indicates that translating this word "robbery" in this verse is "next to impossible" since "the state of being equal with God cannot be equated with the act of robbery." Alternately, the suggestion is that it means "something to which one can claim or assert title by gripping or grasping, or something claimed," yet it can also mean "a piece of good fortune, windfall, prize."

  Through some complicated analysis some thoughtful scholars have decided that it probably means something by which one takes advantage, that is, in the context of the entire verse, the word must be understood as part of an idiomatic expression with the verb. But that's enough scholarship for now.

  I suppose you didn't know you opened not only Philippians 2 but a can of worms with it.

  Euripides
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  one

  I suppose you didn't know you opened not only Philippians 2 but a can of worms with it.

  Can you prove who wrote "phillippians" when and why?
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  SallySue

  Proving the Trinity is true. Jesus, Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit are three in One.