I'm not a Buddhist, but...............PART 2

by Dansk 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Essie, Bem & SheilaM, Thank you!

    Welcome Unfettered!

    is Advaita Vedanta directly dependant on Hinduism?

    Advaita

    , or non-duality, i.e. nothing exists apart from the Spirit and everything is a form used by the Spirit, is not directly dependent on Hinduism. Buddhists, too, are striving to be one with the real Self. However, Vedanta is purely Hinduism and relates to Brahman – but, as it concerns identifying man’s real Self with ultimate Reality, on the surface it would appear there is a similarity of meaning. I’m no Hindu scholar and I often find much in the religion confusing – which is why I love Buddhism so much; it’s so simplified! For others reading, Advaita, in a nutshell, is the recognition of Pure Being as one’s Self and the Self of the universe and of all beings as the supreme and ultimate Truth. Interestingly, Ramana was once reminded that the Buddha refused to answer questions about God and, replying with approval said: "In fact Buddha was more concerned with directing the seeker to realise Bliss here and now than with academic discussions about God and so forth." (Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge by Arthur Osborne, Weiser Books, Boston).
    Is there a place somewhere between where Buddhism and Ramana teachings meet?

    Both teachings will lead us to the same place on the path, but in Buddhism, and particularly in Mahayana, there are spiritual plains beyond the level Ramana reached. I love Ramana, just as much as I love Buddhism, because both are carrying me along to my ultimate destiny – which could be aeons away!

    It seems to me if I'm understanding it right, that you do not have to be either Buddhist or Hindu to find the 'True Path" or to realize who you are, in truth, who we all are and see the ultimate reality. Is this a correct supposition, or am I mistaken? The way it feels most truthful to me is that the path I'm meant to follow isn't 'religious' it's just about remembering what I already knew, and lost track of.
    The concept that truly speaks to me is the thought (realisation?) that no being is more divine than any other. We all are, in our truest state, divine. We are all god, god is in all of us.

    No, you don’t have to be a Buddhist or Hindu to find the "True Path" (and I don’t actually consider Ramana as the archetypal Hindu) – Buddhism and Ramana (as opposed to pure Hinduism) will bring you to a greater awareness about the Truth of Reality than you would likely find in other religions/philosophies. You are less likely to get bogged down with doctrine but will, on the contrary, be able to lead a wonderfully free and happy life – all while your spirituality blossoms.

    Yes, in a manner of speaking, we are all God and God is in all of us (depends on whether you believe in God or not). I believe in Consciousness. I believe in the greater Self. We have evolved to our present level.

    Regarding meditation, I’m no expert but I continue to practise and I do know there comes a point when one needs to speak with a master. Many meditational states are not always what they seem. If I reached a certain state I wouldn’t discuss it openly here, because it might not be what I think it is and, even if it were, could actually affect the progress of another student (e.g., they might despair that they can’t experience the same and abandon the practise). Only a master can help one through what one sees. Therefore, by all means practise meditation alone, as I do, but have an expert ear available when you need it!

    Love,

    Ian

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    Ian, as we say over here on this side of the atlantic, "you da man!" LOL :)

    No, you don?t have to be a Buddhist or Hindu to find the "True Path" (and I don?t actually consider Ramana as the archetypal Hindu) ? Buddhism and Ramana (as opposed to pure Hinduism) will bring you to a greater awareness about the Truth of Reality than you would likely find in other religions/philosophies. You are less likely to get bogged down with doctrine but will, on the contrary, be able to lead a wonderfully free and happy life ? all while your spirituality blossoms.

    Yes, in a manner of speaking, we are all God and God is in all of us (depends on whether you believe in God or not). I believe in Consciousness. I believe in the greater Self. We have evolved to our present level.

    Thank you so much for giving me exactly what I needed! Your insights are invaluable. I should clarify when I said that "God is in all of us and we are God" that I was speaking in terms of the ultimate reality or pure self or what ever you might want to call it; I no longer believe in God as a spirit entity, rather in a Force like manner that binds all and is in all, for want of a better example. I don't believe in God as a separate being- spirit or in the form of any teacher/guru; I agree with you about Conciousness and greater Self.

    I do feel so much more free already not being chained so to speak to all my previous ideas about what God is, worrying if god existed per se in the fairy tale sense of being a father figure that swoops in and saves whom he chooses while he lets others die, as in the tsunami. I couldn't reconcile in my mind any of that, yet I knew that there was something greater than just a world full of billions of separate people.

    Another moment of clarity that has come to me through the realisations of the past few days...is that by realising that all people are divine, I will have a lot more capacity for tolerance and less hostility to those who do believe that God is a personage of spirit being; somehow it no longer feels insulting to me. I think that insecurity was the basis for some of the anger that believers raised in me; that was a failing on my part and I realize now completely that everyone who is sincere has to find their own path and that different people reach their true Self in different ways. Some believe in God to do so and surrender completely to God's superiority;

    SURRENDER
    There are two ways of achieving surrender. One is looking into the source of the 'I' and merging into that source. The other is feeling 'I am helpless myself God alone is all powerful and except throwing myself completely on Him, there is no other means of safety for me', and thus gradually developing the conviction that God alone exists and the ego does not count. Both methods lead to the same goal. Complete surrender is another name for jnana or liberation. "

    I choose the first option; it is also amazing to me that this is not some self-centered ego trippy kind of thing; "Oh, I'm god, god is me, i'm better than everyone else." no way! It is working the opposite way for me. It is reminding me of things that i always knew. I explained it to a friend that it's as if I'm remembering a lullaby that someone I loved sang to me when i was an infant...the tune was familiar from the first note, but the words were missing. I couldn't remember. Then someone said a couple words from the first verse of the song, and now I remember; and it's more beautiful than I remember.

    Thank you again Ian for your insight...I understand about finding a teacher; I am reading right now and concentrating on being still and letting this develop at the pace my mind and heart is ready for; I know these things cannot be rushed. ((((((((Ian)))))))))

    Unfettered, I loved your example of students in your classes. Made perfect sense to me. I have always been overly-sensitive to people's emotions, even from childhood, where at the age of three my mother found me comforting another child in pre-school whose father had just left the family. I came to my mother and said "so-and so is sad, we have to find her father and tell him so that he can come home." I was only three; and I sat and cried with this little girl and patted her on the back and told her that I would be her friend.

    So yeah, learning that agility is a balance that I long for and hope that will develop in me as time goes on. Walking around this way...it's like sensory overload emotionally. There is only so much I can take before I have to withdraw completely and go into hiding in my own little mental cave. Those who know my history with coming and going from the board here may understand that better in light of this. It got, in the past, to a point where it became physically painful to feel other's emotions; and I had no choice but to back away for awhile to get my bearings. I have already become better at protecting myself from this; and I know that I am on the right path to learning that balance. I want to be compassionate but not to the point that it kills me LOL.

    Okay...shall i toss another hat into the ring or do we have too many plates spinning already to mix metaphors? How about Taoism? Unfettered brought it up and I was already thinking about that too; so anyone have any comparisons for me between that and Buddhism and Ramanist teachings (which so far seem the most appealing to me without involving the Hindu religion outright) and Taoism and how it is the same/ different?

    Please don't think I'm being lazy and not wanting to do the research on all this, I spent the whole day yesterday devouring every word I could find on these subjects. Its just my hunger for information is great and I also love getting people's personal perspectives on how each of these schools of thought have effected them.

    Thank you again, everyone...amazing discussion here.

    love,

    essie

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered

    Ian,

    I'm not Buddhist so I can't comment on the Buddhist path with any authority, but I find some of your comments fascinating. I'm hoping you'll continue to illuminate us. Let me also clarify again that any statements I make come from my own unique perspective and don't necessarily reflect the nature of TRUTH for any other individual here. They are simply my own experiences.

    If I reached a certain state I wouldn?t discuss it openly here, because it ...could actually affect the progress of another student

    In my experience this is very true. However, it can either be an affect toward the negative or the positive. We are all constantly affecting one another. I try to be conscious of how my statements and actions may affect others as well, but I don't let the the fact that it does stop me from sharing experiences as I feel motivated or impelled. Sometimes such experiences are exactly what others need, so personally I hope you won't hold back too much. Sometimes I think of it like reading a book. I can open a book on any topic and read it. The moment I read it I get a certain amount of information from it that I can process. However, if I go back and read that same book again 2 years later I am amazed that I now understand some of the statements I don't even remember seeing before in a new light. This has all happened to all of us who have read the bible repeatedly. I believe this happens because our minds actively filter out that which we are not able/ready/willing to accept and/or comprehend at that moment. So, I think the same thing happens in conversation as well as obviously in these types of posts. If someone is not ready for something I say, it is likely they just won't understand it, and/or will ignore it mentally. If they for some reason latch onto it, perhaps that is because they are ready to digest it at that moment. In general agree with your caution however.

    Only a master can help one through what one sees

    But, what is a master? I could say I know many "masters" in the Martial Arts. In fact I can call myself a "Master" in the martial arts (though compared to some other "masters" I'm nothing). The word Sifu in chinese is commonly rendered here in the US as "Master", but the word simply means "teacher". The word Sijo is the word for a Teacher who is also the Founder of a particular art. These two words apply to any trade or skill, not just martial arts. So, a "master" is really just a teacher who has aquired enough skill to be better than the average person at a particular art or trade. It does not mean they are infallible, perfect, or that they always know what is best for you. My personal experience is that the saying "when the student is ready the master/teacher will come" has always been true for me.

    Whenever I reach a particular area or level of growth in any particular area and need the next step, some guidance is provided to me. This comes in many different forms. It could be a book written a long time ago to which I was never really attracted to until now. It could be a friend who suddenly begins providing me excellent advice I need at the moment. It could be school with a teacher I am particularly drawn to. It could also be a dream and/or an astral experience in which I speak with a Guide/higher level being that provides me instructions for particular things (this has happened to me).

    I believe we are dynamic creatures living in a dynamic universe where static rules do not apply. Go with the flow, get in touch with your inner knowing (as fleur seems to be doing) and follow the inner knowing to your next teacher in whatever form it may appear. Remember, teachers do not know everything... BUT, the teacher you need at any moment will have a piece of the puzzle that you need for your particular stage of growth at this moment. Be careful not to ATTACH yourself to any one master/teacher. This is in fact where a lot of religions begin to develop and lead people astray. Rather than looking inward at their OWN unique path, people begin to allow the Master or Teacher tell them what their path should be. Don't get me wrong. We ALL need to be told where to go sometimes... we all need advice... we all need guidance... but there is a difference between critically listening to advice and guidance, and blindly allowing ourselves to be lead by the same person or group to the exclusion of all other sources of guidance and knowledge.

    Also, remember that since we are all connected and really we are all ONE... when you say someone else is helping or guiding you, in reality you are saying you are guiding yourself. Sometimes what is lacking is not the KNOWING of what to do, it is the confidence to trust in one's own knowing. So, we tend to look toward external advice for confirmation of what we may already know inside. Over time hopefully our confidence in and ability to discern that knowledge grows to a point that we no longer NEED external masters/teachers.

    However, that being said, some people absolutely need them. It all depends on where you personally are at any given moment in your own growth and awareness. Personally, I believe that religions are necessary "evils" for want of a better word... maybe I could use the word structures or institutions. To illustrate, I read an interview recently with a Buddhist monk in Tibet. The interviewer asked the monk about the various rituals and celebrations the people in Tibet do and perform. They have various rituals and parades and get all dressed up hit gongs and burn incense and have prayer wheels etc. The Buddhist monk responded by saying that most of the people are like children. They need toys to play with. It's like a child in a play pen. The play pen is an environment to grow in. Within the play pen are various toys for them to play with and occupy themselves. These toys do not really represent reality, but they are in fact shadows of the reality or symbolic of reality. As adults we know that the toy bear is not a real bear, but only a symbolic representation of one that the child plays with. This applies to all his toys. However, as the child grows and matures they will realize the emptiness or lack of real value that the toys he is playing with provide. Naturally, the child will then begin to look for that which is MORE real... more substantial... that which has greater true value and is a closer representation of reality. The Buddhist monk went on to state that higher level Buddhist monks care nothing for and do not need the prayer wheels, the incense, the candles, the masks and gold ornamentation, the cloathing. All of that disappears and one is able to exist in a state of contented happiness without such things... and yet, who would take the toys away from a child and try to force them to grow up when they are only 3 years old? A small child NEEDS structure, and toys. So too, I believe many souls in this world still NEED religion. Just as every parent is not perfect, not every religion is perfect... and some are worse than others. However, just like with any child who has any parent, every child must grow up and at some point decide to leave the nest and grow beyond the boundries established by their parents.

    I am reading right now and concentrating on being still

    Fleur, this is excellent. Stillness is one of the most important aspects or skills to learn. It is very closely tied to both focus and awareness and your concentrating on stillness will improve both of these. Please feel free to share any of your experiences in stillness as you progress.

    In regard to Taosim and Buddhism, well, I am neither Taoist nor Buddhist, but the foundations of both of these agree with who I am and my own philosophy. I did not evolve my own philosophy by reading about these "ways" or systems. My own inner philosophy or outlook evolved through prayer, meditation, and personal experience. However, what's so fascinating to me is that these practitioners of Buddhism and Taoism developed their philosophies in a similar manner... prayer, meditation, and personal experience... and the founding principles all seem to be the same. The differences in them all seem to arise over time as technical details and/or the tainting of a "way" by persons less aware and less experienced interpreting the sayings of these individuals and forming their own egocentric systems. I have been flaberghasted to read in both ancient Taoist and Buddhist texts passages that seem like direct quotes of Jesus and yet these were written before Jesus, so was he quoting from them... or is it possible Jesus was just a "Buddha" or enlightened being/soul who has been misrepresented over time by those less aware and experienced? I tend to believe that is the case. In any event I feel there is great merit in studying and reading about both of these philosophies as well as Zen. Look for the similarities, because I believe that in the similarities is where you will find the most "truth". Also, when someone simply says or writes something I personally give more weight to it if the person says, "I had this experience", rather than the person just giving their opinion based on their "logic". In my experience Truth is far from "logical". Logic is flawed because logic is only based upon what one knows or can see at any given moment. Pure experience is closer to truth although not always necessarily absolute truth. Experience can also be deceiving at times. However, going back to why logic doesn't usually lead to the truth behind complex things such as this reality we live in...

    Imagine you and some friends are working together to put together a jig saw puzzle on the ground. The jig saw puzzle is a picture of something, but you don't know what it is. So, you start putting the pieces together but you cannot see the whole picture yet. As you put it together you see a leaf form... ah... then you see a flower form... ah... then you see some grass form... ah... then you see some tree bark form... ah ha! you say! I know what the picture is! This is a picture of a forest with trees and flowers! So logical... of course because it is based on evidence right? So, you tell everyone in the room with you, "don't worry... there is no need for you to continue working on the jigsaw puzzle... I've already figured it out... I have the truth. You don't need to think for yourselves anymore or put any more pieces together... just listen to me... I know the answer.".

    Well fortunately, a couple of your friends do not decide to follow your advice and conclusions based on "logic" or the evidence at hand. So, they continue putting the jigsaw puzzle together and finish it. Low and behold the picture turns out not to be a forest of trees and plants, but rather a picture of only one tree sitting in a patch of dirt and grass in the middle of an urban city with buildings around it. Thus, logic generally is limited and will not generally lead to the truest picture. It is my belief however that during episodes of personal experience during meditation (and even in other things) that one is able to get larger chunks or pieces of the entire picture. So, that is why I tend to give more weight to a persons words when they say, I had this particular experience. Because the experience they had is more likely to be one of the missing puzzle pieces than when they just come up with some concocted theory based on their limited evidence and viewpoint. When someone tells me they had a particular experience I listen with rapt attention and try to see how that experience fits into the framework of my own experience to see if it might illuminate my own experiences further.

    As you read you will notice many of the fundamental Buddhist, Zen, and Taoist philosophies come from direct experiences. How those experiences are interpreted may not always be THE TRUTH, but the experiences themselves are extremely valuable. You might find it interesting to read the experiences of Robert Monroe in his books as well.

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    Thank you again unfettered for your continuing contributions to this thread...so much to ponder, not a lot to add at the moment, but I wanted you to know that I appreciate and am pondering your words.

    thanks again!

    essie

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered

    Thank you... I hope you continue to share your insights and experiences.

  • Dansk
    Dansk

    Hi Unfettered,

    But, what is a master?

    I used the word 'master' in its generally accepted implication of meaning someone who is greatly experienced and a skilled practitioner.

    Interestingly, Dr. David Hawkins, author of Power vs Force, page 266, states: "In Eastern spiritual disciplines, it's accepted that the devotee alone, unaided by a guru, is unlikely to make much progress.................A devotee (of the discipline, not the guru, italics mine) can abet his own progress by merely focusing on an advanced teacher and thereby aligning with that teacher's energy field; in our testing, it was repeatedly shown that holding the image of an advanced spiritual teacher in mind made every subject go strong, regardless of his personal beliefs."

    Due to my illness I am limited to reading books on or by the great masters. I am also unable to attend modern-day discourses – but a wonderfully kind and knowledgeable Buddhist calls round every week and I always learn something. So, yes, there is much one can learn from books – but they can never take the place of a genuine one-to-one expert. When the time comes when we no longer need a teacher/master we will be enlightened.

    With Metta,

    Ian

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered

    Dansk,

    In my experience every word you wrote in your last post is true. However, there is a little more to it. The words, "it's accepted that the devotee alone, unaided by a guru, is unlikely to make much progress" could be a little misleading. Having had "eastern" masters myself I know that it is indeed known that a student will grow quicker at certain points with a Master. However, the master does not hold the hand of the student 24/7. The idea is not that the master become the say all leader of the student. It is also recognized that many Sijo's (or founding masters) either never had earthly masters to teach them, or learned various things from many masters from which they themselves extrapolated a greater truth or system. It's important to recognize how much the immediate self is necessary for individual growth.

    I teach Martial Arts, but I'm also an employer. I notice the same thing from some employees that I notice from some students. Some employees and some students are constantly looking to the Master/Employer for EVERY answer instead of taking the initiative to figure some things out for themselves. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem answering "appropriate" questions... but an inapropriate question or leaning on the teacher would be asking a question to which you might yourself be able to reason out or experience by putting just a little effort out on your own part. This is part of the cycle of growth, learning how to find our own answers and develop self-motivation. What I personally find to be true is that students/employees that exert themselves to figure out their own answers, as well as asking questions when appropriate to their master/employer are the ones that excel the fastest and out perform others. Indeed, some masters of martial arts will not take students who do not demonstrate this quality to think for themselves already.

    When you have a child or a baby as a father or mother you would carry the baby around at it's earliest stages. Then you would do things that would help it's legs to become stronger. Then you would put it up on it's legs and see if it could walk. You would keep your hands close by, but as much as possible you would let the baby walk under it's own power. In time you let the baby walk completely on it's own, but keep a close eye on it. Soon it is a young child you never even think of helping to walk.... then later an adult etc. The idea is to develop self-dependence and not dependence upon a parent or master.

    Both the need and the desire to acquire a master is a very personal thing based on one's own unique needs at the moment. As much as possible I encourage people to figure things out for themselves ALONG with the aid of both Masters and Self-Study. Ian is absolutely right when he says only so much can be learned from a book... that however should not minimize the vast amount that can be learned from the writings of wise individuals as well as deep introspection and self-analysis.

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    Hi guys...I'm back! LOL :)

    Well, what a week it's been. This is the culmination really of something that has been coming for years. I remember wondering about so much of these things as a teen; and burying them deep under years of JW rhetoric...and then totally losing myself somewhere along the way. Even when I thought that I had realized my individuality and 'uniqueness' in the freedom that comes from casting off the JW restraints...I honestly still had no idea at the core what I knew; as far as god, mankind, myself. anything.

    I have gravitated toward buddhism and eastern philosophy for years; but something always in the end made me shy away; and that was the concept of needing a Buddha, or a Master, so to speak, to lead me. As I said to Ian at the outset of this discussion, I have ultra sensitive cult-radar; anything that seems to lean on either the idea of an all powerful being ruling over all and us being horribly inferior to that; and the idea of elevating any human to a divine status, frankly, scared me.

    Now, I know that there is wisdom in learning from people who know more than you do LOL that's why the world needs teachers. Whether you want to learn to drive or knit or anything else, you usually need someone to show you the finer points.

    The event, 'awakening' if you want to call it that, is the most amazing thing too because suddenly, everything is still, and peaceful at the center of myself. there's just this sense of knowing what I know. I expect that this is how people who believe in God feel; or would describe as 'being saved' or 'feeling grace'. I don't believer that there is only one path and I know that this understanding that I have now of my own self and reality will make me a LOT more tolerant of others beliefs; whereas before hearing anyone talk about how they believed in God grated on me so badly, like nails on a chalkboard, and that came out of my own 'not knowing' what life is; what we all are, what I am.

    This is likely gonna sound nuts to the majority of people here; that's okay. I can't believe the freedom that I feel in knowing that it's not about a particular religion or god; I don't have to believe in an all powerful being to find peace and answers; i have them all inside myself, and they were there all along, I just needed to remember. everyone has it inside them. but it's not about me, or you. it's bigger than that.

    with that, I won't try anymore to describe it...cause if you know what I'm talking about no explanation is needed but if you can't begin to make sense of it, no explanation will do...

    i have much reading to do; and maybe the day will come where i will feel comfortable with finding a master to study under. but what i think that you all don't understand is that all of you who have helped me think things through for myself here and given me some great road signs to follow to cheer me on that i was going in the right direction are teachers to me; you all are. and i am grateful.

    have to run for now but will be back with more later...

    love

    essie

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    Ian, I forgot to say before in my other post...when you said that you are careful of what you share; I wanted to say that I certainly don't expect you to share anything that makes you uncomfortable in any way... If anything feels like too much information, I understand, I do not want to tread too heavily upon your kindness or ask too much that is personal...and I am so appreciative of the openness you have shown us in this thread (and many others too!) and I just wanted to say that. Thank you, thank you.

    love,

    essie

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered

    Fleur,

    I think what you stated made quite a bit of sense not to worry... and I think that you are doing just fine listening to your inner intuition. Keep reading, keep listening to others, but ultimately make choices that agree with your path. We all have individual paths and purposes. The society made us feel that we had 1 basic purpose, to worship God and do his will. However, that was overly simplistic at best. We all are like parts of a body, or parts in a machine... each with it's place, purpose, and intrinsic value for the functioning of the whole... some as healers... some as teachers... some as prophets... etc etc etc... some can do a little of all.

    I have found in my own life that if you find your place or path and focus your life's energy into it you will find deep fulfillment, growth, and happiness.

    Ian, please understand I mean no offense. I understand you are ill. I do not know the reasons why and I do not know the cure... but I just want to share a personal story.

    Shortly after leaving the organization I found myself in a state of unknown and lacking direction. I had not yet started regular meditation, introspection, and study. I had not yet found a focus either. I had already began to drink somewhat and over-eat as well. I started to notice at one point of this that my body felt like it was breaking down. I started getting lesions on the skin in places, turning pale, highly discolored urine etc... and I also started developing what seemed to be a harsh rash on the skin the doctors were worried about it being skin cancer. My health went downhill and I began to get sick. I literally started to feel like I was dying.

    For a while I didn't care because I didn't feel I had any purpose. I was literally loosing heart and this had a direct impact on my health. Then one day I actually started to care and got scared. I realized I didn't want to die and that I wanted more out of life than to die right now. With that change in my attitude my health immediately began to change. The lesions went away, the harsh rash on my skin went away, and my health became strong again. I realized very quickly how much our mental state can affect our health as well as our wishing to live or die. I'm sure many others have experienced the same and/or worse. Sometimes we can actually have points of view, mental blockages, or mind sets that affect our health without us even knowing it.

    I do not know your situation so this does not necessarily apply to you. Sometimes health problems are not caused by ourselves. If I get hit by a care it's probably (I hope) not due to my mental disposition. But in the course of healing ourselves it can be very beneficial to look for anything internally that may be obstructing the healing process. I'm sure you've done reading of this nature before. Are you open to discussing what you've learned and what your Buddhist teacher has helped you with in terms of your illness? If you've already covered this in another thread I'll go read it there if you post the URL.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit