I'm not a Buddhist, but...............PART 2

by Dansk 69 Replies latest jw friends

  • Fleur
    Fleur

    I just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for all their insights, especially Ian and Unfettered for all their thought provoking and in-depth posts. I am very grateful and will surely read and review them many times.

    I will leave this thread to you now as I am withdrawing from the topic now into myself with all you've said to be still and ponder. I'm reading many things, taking in the wisdom of many sages from different perspectives...and finding what I need by stripping what I do not away.

    Ian I continue to wish and hope with all my heart for your full recovery, thank you again for everything.

    Keep on discussing, folks :) I'll be lurking around somewhere peeking in.

    hugs

    essie

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    Consciousness is mobile. It can freely enter, leave, and create bodies it needs to exist in whatever environment it chooses to visit.
    each of us participates in the whole and each of us has internal information not completely shared....

    In my personal experience this statement is not completely accurate. I have literally had experiences in which I left my body and entered the body of another individual to experience things from their unique perspective. I believe we are all much more intimately tied together than we realize. However, in order to perceive this state of connectedness it is necessary to mobilize your consciousness away from your physical body by at least 2 or 3 gross "layers" and then merge your consciousness with another human's body. Additionally, I have in communications with what you might call ghosts and/or entites existing in higher layers experienced a type of communication that does not include language or even thought, but simply direct experience is communicated to me. When the entity wants me to understand something a sort of packet or segment of their direct experience is passed to me. This latter form of communication is very intimate and does not seem to hide ANYTHING about the particular experience. So, I believe that our uniqueness is really a uniqueness that only exists in certain layers. As we move upward through the layers our uniqueness dissappears and our individual uniqueness becomes simply another aspect of the whole.

    This mobilizing and division of consciousness can be demonstrated in various ways even through science. However, of course science cannot go any further than physical expression and measurements.

    of course I did not mean to suggest that at some level we were not all just ONE.... to expand on your expansion, I think you see things a bit inside out from me.... you speak of inhabitting bodies to experience different levels.... but I have experienced and was told by other non humans that everything we "know" is pure mental fiction to some degree, that the earth and sea and much of the contents are nothing more than a shared invention that many minds put a lot of effort into making and many minds unconsciously keep it going so that one mind alone find it difficult but not impossible to penetrate the game and see through it...which would spoil the fun....

    rather than any noble reason for its existance, I have found just the opposite, it is a game invented as simply a means of committing chronocide in the long endless eternity of existance.... there are beings who think of us players as addicts who cannot stop harming ourselves and try to rescue us from time to time and even try to end the game for us....but after eons of time, and countless openings and closing of this game, few better ones have been found and many are waiting in line to try their hand at it..... of course I could be completely wrong and then again so can you...after all, nothing we know is more than what our mind has invented....ever.

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered

    As I've mentioned before, we can both only talk from our own experience. I've read quite a bit, but I usually do not incorporate what I read into my perspective until or unless I have personal experience to validate it. However, even in personal experience we do not see the whole picture.

    In my experiences I have also received information to the effect that this is all sort of like a large game as well. However, there are very definite purposes for each of us to play the game and lessons and experiences we are here for. At least every couple of weeks I find myself undergoing testing at higher levels where these guides/higher beings are specifically providing guidance, instruction, and testing of certain personality traits. This earth is only one dimension of experience though.

    In terms of all this reality being only a mental construct I cannot answer with any real authority of experience because none of the guides/instructors seems to want to answer some of those questions whenever I ask. On no few occasions when I have been in their presence and begun to ask excitedly about the nature of reality etc I get soft mental shhhhhh's telling me those types of questions will be answered in time. However, I do have personal opinions. I do believe that our consciousness effects the material world we see around us... there is no small amount of current scientific evidence to support this. This implies that our thought does have a lot to do with what we see and experience. However, I have a feeling that it is not JUST the combined thought of all humans for example that really sustains this reality. I believe it is also the thought manifestation of a higher being. I do not call this being God or the Ultimate, because likely there is another higher being above that being.

    In any event what I have been taught and shown is that how much we personally as an entity have the ability to change this reality with our thoughts depends greatly on our strength of mind and ability to focus. Think of it as mental weight lifting. This environment also acts as a sort of mental gym in which our minds are placed within an environment of perceived limitations that force our mind to grow stronger and more focussed in order to effect desired changes. In a purely mind or astral environment I could simply think of a ball and place it mentally in my hand and it happens wallah! very easily.

    In the earth environment however, I must learn to walk, use motor functions, focus my mind on walking and bending over and picking up a ball... perhaps searching for one etc. This process strengthens the mind and makes it more focussed and powerful. Over time and many incarnations our mind becomes strong enough, aware enough, and focussed enough to break the cycle just as a baby at some point learns to climb out of a crib. What happens after this earth environment or what other types of environments we are placed in after this one to grow even stronger, wiser, more aware, and more focused I do not know and have not been told.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    I cannot answer with any real authority of experience because none of the guides/instructors seems to want to answer some of those questions whenever I ask. On no few occasions when I have been in their presence and begun to ask excitedly about the nature of reality etc I get soft mental shhhhhh's telling me those types of questions will be answered in time.

    here is my experience make of it what you will....

    after my 2nd apparently failed attempt at past life regression, I had a series of amazing dreams all within a weeks time, not like any prior lucid or normal dream, but like reliving events sort of thing....

    the first one began with my being shot to death in the late 50s but not dying, instead getting up and walking into another level of reality, first meeting a group of children who told me how they had died.... then being curious about what was up and what was next....I asked if I knew this one gal and she said no and I looked around and found no one I knew at all.... then I saw someone a head taller than all others and accepted him as a leader of some sort... I asked him If I should wait for my group or what? he said, no, but that I should not interfer too much in the life of others but to work my own path.

    then I grew curious about the other realm [this one] and asked why I still remembered it, but when I was there [here], I had no recollection of this side.... everything he explained to me vanished but for his final words "P. T. Barnum" which immediately brought to mind, "there is a sucker born every minute" and I understood he was telling me that the other realm [this world] was designed to fool us into thinking it was the ""önly one"" and suddenly I protested following his view, I said, "but this realm is a mental invention too, right?"" he walked up to this window overlooking a city and tapped on the frame and said, ïts as real as real gets"" to which I protested and said "but it is a mental invention?"" and then I noticed another guide.... he was standing behind me to the right and he looked at this object sitting infront of me to the left and it lept into the air.... showing me, yes this world was also mental not physical as it appeared....

    a year later while on a 3 wk business trip out of town in Kansas, I tried out of body and after 2wks had a partial OBE where my right hand seperated into two fully real feeling appendages....then snapped back together.... suddenly I realized what ïts as real as real gets"" meant...

    everything we know and can know is within our mind, not real in any other sense and cannot be any more real to us than that.

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered
    after my 2nd apparently failed attempt at past life regression, I had a series of amazing dreams all within a weeks time, not like any prior lucid or normal dream, but like reliving events sort of thing....

    I've also been to a past life regression class and was to my judgment fruitless. I attended with a friend. However, I am able to induce out of body experiences almost at will (circumstances and environment tend to influence these ease of such experiences) remaining fully conscious the whole time. Generally what happens is I get to a point of stillness with my mind... enter a deep blackness that has a 3 dimensional vastness quality and then I begin to feel strong vibrations (these vibrations decreased over time) a loud rushing and/or long ringing tone and then the vibrations and tone die down as I feel myself become light and begin to slip free of my physical body. On numerous occasions I have come half way out of my body and poked and proded my physical body (usually the legs) with my "astral" hands/finger and still "felt" the pokes although it felt more like pressure or warmth going into my legs. I've studied the second body state extensively and obviously have more to learn. Anyway, for a number of years even though I had been having controlled full blown out of body experiences I did not believe in "past lives" because I had never experienced one. I went to the regression thing and it didn't seem to work for me.

    However... and it's a big however, after several years of dedicated Qi Gong, Tai Qi and deep level meditation I began to literally feel these.. what I would call knots of energy within. Every time I released one of these knots my level of awareness, perception, as well as control and higher level astral experiences (and dreams) were heightened another level. At a certain point I started to have what I can only classify as memories surface during deep meditations that would sometimes seem like normal recollections and other times would be full blown relived moments from lives in the past. That is when I began to be much less skeptical of past lives. Personal experience is really the only way to truly know something. Anyway, the experience you shared is very interesting.

    instead getting up and walking into another level of reality, first meeting a group of children who told me how they had died.... then being curious about what was up and what was next....I asked if I knew this one gal and she said no and I looked around and found no one I knew at all.... then I saw someone a head taller than all others and accepted him as a leader of some sort... I asked him If I should wait for my group or what? he said, no, but that I should not interfer too much in the life of others but to work my own path.

    This sounds very classic or inline with my own and many others experiences.

    then I grew curious about the other realm [this one] and asked why I still remembered it, but when I was there [here], I had no recollection of this side....

    Whenever I leave my body in my second body, or my consciousness phases into a higher level through another form of meditation (this does not require leaving the physical body in the second body) I have regularly noted that I immediately KNOW much more and REMEMBER much more in those states than I do when I'm in my physical body. It is an expanded state that provides expanded memories and experience we do not always have access to while in the physical body. Your experience seems to coincide with my own in that way. People have asked me to prove the out of body experience to them by leaving my body and going and looking at something then coming back and telling them. However, I generally am not able to do that. Although I did visit a new friends house once I'd never been to and told him what kind of house it was (3 story), what color it was (blue), and that it resided in a culdesack and what the curve of the street and the hill beside it looked like. We were having coffee one day when I told him. He just stared at me and didn't say anything. I assumed I must have gotten it wrong. A couple days later he sat down with me and looked pale and shaken. He then proceeded to say he had been shaken up when I had described his house because it was dead on. He then grilled me about whether I had found out his address and had gone and looked at it. I had not. For a long time he still had a hard time believing it. People need to experience things for themselves to really know. I convinced him to try the meditation technique I use for leaving my body. To date he's had 3 out of body experience each successively longer and more controlled. He's on his way to some fun experiences. Anyway, I digress. What I was getting at is that a lot of times I'm not able to just decide to go somewhere and then have an out of body experience and then go where I decided to go while I was in my body. The reason is that when I leave my body I suddenly have more memories and different desires and purposes based on that expanded memory.

    It's kind of like a person who lives in a house and while they are in their house they only know about the things in the house. But when they leave the house they are aware of much more. Imagine this person living in the house decides he's hungry and wants to go get some pizza and beer. However, the moment he leaves his house he remembers he's a fireman and he needs to go help rescue people in a fire. So, he goes and rescues the people in the fire and comes home afterward. He walks in the door to his home and suddenly he can't remember he is a fireman anymore and he says, "man why didn't I go get the pizza and beer?? (scratches head)"... what I've noticed is somewhat like that except that each time I come back I can still remember some of what I was doing while out of body and each time I bring back a little more memory from my expanded state. I think that the human brain does store information, but generally only memories and information having to do with this physical world. However, it is possible to go out and get other memories and information from other levels of consciousness and bring those back or transfer them back down into the human brain so that we can remember them while we are focused in this human physical body. Does any of this make sense to you?

    I said, "but this realm is a mental invention too, right?"" he walked up to this window overlooking a city and tapped on the frame and said, ïts as real as real gets"" to which I protested and said "but it is a mental invention?"" and then I noticed another guide.... he was standing behind me to the right and he looked at this object sitting infront of me to the left and it lept into the air.... showing me, yes this world was also mental not physical as it appeared....

    I don't see any disagreement here between your experience and mine. The only possible disagreement would be the interpretation of the experience. This is the one thing that can really snag us. We are creatures who want everything to be concrete and rational so we are always trying to rationalize and figure things out. However, we can't really every get the full understanding of our experiences because how we interpret our experiences always depends upon the combined full experiences we have experienced up until that point. Basically, we have limited resources from which to interpret our experiences at any given moment. So we do the best with what we have and hopefully we remain open to the possibility of being wrong and find ourselves being corrected as we go. Yes, I agree that every world IS mental that is, it proceeds from a consciousness and/or group of consciousnesses. I believe your experience does illustrate this very well. My own experiences agree. However, be careful not to take that one experience farther than it really goes. There is a lot of additional information your experience does not cover. It sounds to me like you were being somewhat teased about the nature of reality... given a bite if you will and allowed to bring the memory of it back with you into your physical mind.

    Another thing people tend to do is read into their experiences way more than is there. For example, a guy has an out of body heavenly experience in which he's sees what he thinks is Jesus... so then he decides this means his is a special messenger of god and goes and starts a religion and convinces people god has chosen him... when perhaps what really happened is that the guy did indeed have his own personal experience, the entity was not Jesus but the guys own belief system projected that image onto the entity (who might be a guide), the entity may have given the guy a PERSONAL message meant for him and his life circumstances alone. However, the guy gets an ego trip and decides god has chosen him to create a following and tell everyone his message. I think a lot of smurfy "new age" gurus are somewhat like this. That being said although I've had A LOT of experiences I have NEVER received any indication that I was supposed to start any religion, bring a message to the masses, or that I was a special representative of god. I admit that in the very beginning I was tempted to think that way a little. However, over time as my experiences have expanded and my previous egocentric beliefs and misconceptions slowly stripped away it's become quite clear that each and every one of us is a unique individual with a very unique path and a unique purpose in the scheme of things.

    Ian, it's also interesting that my personal experiences have led me to realize the value of letting go of attachment in order to realize true compassion and love. This is one of the things that was very striking to me when I finally got around to reading about Buddhism more deeply recently. This Buddhist philosophy agrees deeply with my own experience. I noticed as my experiences became more and more profound that I started loosing any interest in needing or wanting to accumulate wealth or earthly possessions aside from using such funds and items for positive purposes. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy things as much as anyone, but I'm generally not unhappy without them, and I don't actively seek to fill my life with possessions and money beyond what I need to fulfill my purpose.

    Additionally, when I was younger I always thought of love or felt love in a I WANT THIS kind of way. My experiences brought me to realize that true love is a real energy and it is not associated with possession of others but rather a willingness to give freely without expecting anything in return at all. In the past I had heard similar words before and of course read Jesus example in the Bible but honestly never understood them deeply until I began deep meditation and my subsequent experiences.

    If there is any one message I would give to anyone or encouragement I would give to anyone it would be to meditate. Learn and practice many forms of meditation. Examine yourself, dive into your own inner world and know yourself more fully... and along with that learn to follow your own unique path and be content with it. Instead of trying to control everything around you, learn to be dynamic and change, go with the flow, as well as exherting your own will as you can along the way.

  • Unfettered
    Unfettered

    Fleur,

    I'm glad you listen to the opinions and thoughts of others, but as well have a firmly established sense of self and are doing what you need to do to focus on what you as a unique individual need. I hope to hear more of your comments and personal insights as you feel ready to share and participate.

    warm hug.

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist

    everything you are saying matches a combination of my own experiences and several books I have read, particularly

    robert monroe's far journeys and some of Carlos Castenada's books.

    as to starting a new religion, I was specifically told not to interfer with the path of others [which of course I have violated many times]

    especially as a BORG.

    but I think I was compelled to be a BORG because of a murder I committed last go round.... a murder I dreamt of even before my past life work...and the reason I was shot to death in my regressed last life.

    now what do you think of this..... my "guide" is a guy named Quan Lee Fong who claims he was "me" in the 1830s china as a Taoist Monk.

    it am not 100% sure it has always been him, but several times in dreams and once in waking life, he has grabbed me and forced me to do things.... in waking life he grabbed the inside of my hands and forced me to fail a typing test required for a job interview [two seperate times] and that lead directly to my current 100x better job.

    in dreams he plays games with me.... but only in lucid dreaming... he first grabbed me while I was prowling for sex and dragged me to a rose bush without a word or any visible appearance.... next I shoved me through a dream window when I wanted to peek inside and compare notes to the waking world version of the same building.... I was shoved so hard that the glass shattered and woke me up with a --"what the F.!!"

    JWs would attribute him to some sort of Demon, but he has never done me any harm and has taught me many lessons without a word.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    You guys are just having a go at me, aren't ya??? :-D

  • zen nudist
    zen nudist
    You guys are just having a go at me, aren't ya??? :-D

    everything I know is my own minds invention so I am aware that my mind may be inventing everything I have experienced like a dream and none of it is 100% reliable, but we must all gamble with our best skills for each move we make and my best guess is that some of these things are actually true.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi Dansk,

    I fully agree I don't know a lot about Buddhism. I do know a bit about comparative religions however.

    That is why a statement from a Buddhist who feels being the aggressor is wrong (and I do agree with you but on humanistic principles) doesn't to me necessarily mean that Buddhism can be defined as a religion where anyone who is the aggressor is not a "Buddhist".

    Those Buddhists that make such claims have arguments which support their claims, just as those that oppose it have arguments which support their opposition.

    As historically speaking, the majority opinion has not necessarily been the correct or definitive one, when two groups of people claim to be part of the same tradition (yet one disputes the others place in that tradition), one cannot really do anything other than turn to the texts which the beliefs are drawn from.

    And this then leads to arguments (whatever the religion) as to the cannonicity of the texts used by various parties - which as my original post indicates is something I am aware of. Obviously older texts would be more likely to hold original sayings, but let us not forget older texts might also require us to conceive of the Buddha flying between two opposing armies as being an actual event. Being old doesn't necessarily mean it is a literal representation of fact. Different schools of Buddhism hold different parts of Buddhist scripture to be canonical and think they are right.

    All of which means that in the end one is left with arguments about orthodoxy and orthopraxy between two groups claiming to the same tradition, but divergent in their opinions and using facts and evidence, as they see them, to support their claims.

    As is oft the case religious traditions and usability of a tradition as a political tool cause divergence from what can arguably held to be the original intention of the founder of a faith - and Buddhism gets clobbered by that just as Christianity does.

    Likewise, historical events and discoveries bring or force changes in belief or the expression of belief.

    Can these warrant a situation where a fundamental tenet becomes mutable? Or where the interpretation of a fundamental tenet becomes changed?

    Some say no;

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2065/is_2_55/ai_106560164

    However, one wonders what language we would have been speaking if the main religion of Europe had been Buddhism in 1939 and Germany wasn't Buddhist...

    Others say yes; Zen Buddhism would seem to have had little problem reconciling violence with Buddhist principles, a subject which is examined here along with violence and Buddhism in general;

    http://homepages.utoledo.edu/enelson5/buddhismandwar.htm

    Sri Lanka is not by any stretch the only example of violence being sanctioned by people defining themselves as Buddhist; this is an excellent article;

    http://www.sangam.org/articles/view/?id=118

    The first of the last two links makes a point which is pertinent;

    "Attachment to one's own individual or group superiority undermines the basic equality of sentient beings asserted by the Buddha and in the Buddhist tradition as well as the fundamental practises of loving kindness and compassion."

    What made me react in the first place was I know Buddhists are just as human as the next belief category (I don't think you would dream of claiming otherwise), and to try to claim non-violence as an immutable constant among Buddhists would seem to commit the same error as the examples I gave in my first post; an assumption that a professed belief excludes a certain behaviour and participation in the behaviour excludes one from the group holding that belief.

    I don't agree with that assumption.

    All the best.

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