classicist
I see. Well then, 777 pardons. Perhaps i will take a listen to the song/soundtrack. Wicked humor, btw
S
What gives any being the right to be worshipped?
by dh 30 Replies latest jw friends
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Namasti
Where were all you Deep Thinkers when I was in "the truth"--I never heard anyone ask any of these questions. It was like only being in the company of 5th graders.
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bebu
Getting back to the idea of worship...
REV 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."Here, creation is the basis for worship. Later on:
REV 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
REV 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."REV 5:11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"REV 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lambbe praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"Not just on "technical" ground (creation), but on basis of moral worthiness: self-sacrifice for the eternal redemption of men. I cannot think of a greater reason, myself.
Another thought on worship... from a book called Reflections on the Psalms by CS Lewis, in the chapter "A Word About Praising"...
"... The miserable idea that God should in any sense need, or crave for, our worshiop like a vain woman wanting compliments, or a vain author presenting his new books to people who never met or heard of him, is implicitly answered by the words, "If I be hungry I would not tell thee." (Ps 50:12) Even if such an absurd Deity could be conceived, He would hardly come to us, the lowest of rational creatures, to gratify His appetite. I don't want my dog to bark approval of my books. Now that I come to think of it, there are some humans whose enthusiastically favourable criticism would not gratify me.
"But the most obvious fact about praise--whether of God or anything--strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honour. I have never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless (sometimes even if) shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise--lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favourite game--praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. I had not noticed how the humblest, and at the same time most balanced and capacious, praised most, while the cranks, misfits and malcontents praised least. ...I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise whatever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: "Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?" The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, that we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.
"I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."
I heartily agree. Worship is the natural overflow of the heart toward what it loves and deems "worthy".
bebu
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MungoBaobab
I would expect beings in my charge, especially beings of my creation, to do as I ask of them. I would expect them to apreciate what I do for them. That being said, with every resource at my disposal I would help them out as best I could, and I'd do a hell of alot better job than to allow tsunamis to wipe out my beings by the tens of thousands.
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bebu
I'd do a hell of alot better job than to allow tsunamis to wipe out my beings by the tens of thousands.
That's noble: you would do whatever it would take to make sure death wouldn't have the final say over your beings? I would say that is very good indeed...
bebu
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seeitallclearlynow
Good topic, dh.
And now from Norm's equally excellent topic:
Wow!, Now we finally got it. All the crap that happens to us humans, including the latest Tsunami disaster has its explanation in a woman and a talking snake in a garden a long time ago, yup, how can anyone ever miss that, huh? That really makes sense, eh? I mean who among us would want anything as awful as independence? Of course God seemed completely powerless to prevent all this highly irregular behavior perpetrated by his ?perfect? creation. He clearly was a powerless bystander helplessly watching his obviously very flawed creation screw up in a major way, plunging mankind into pain, suffering and misery. What is, caring, just and loving about that?
Is the complete and utter nonsense presented above any less silly then the ?explanations? discussed further above? Isn?t the one who supposedly started all this indeed an accomplice to it? And the simple fact that suffering is still going on is of course excellent proof that God was indeed unable to prevent it, or didn?t care particularly about it perhaps.
Just look at this question again:
?*** w03 1/1 p. 4 Comfort for Those Who Suffer *** Comfort for Those Who Suffer What, then, does the Bible say about the reason why suffering has been permitted??
Think about this. Suffering was permitted! By whom? By God of course. Did he have to permit it? Yes, apparently he had to. If he permitted it to happen, he is of course responsible for it. Is there any good reasons to ?permit? people to suffer in all kinds of horrible ways? Of course there isn?t. Is it a sign that a person who ?permit? such horrific things care for us and love us? Of course it isn?t.
But the ?explanation? gets far worse:
?*** w03 1/1 pp. 5-6 Comfort for Those Who Suffer *** Settling the Issue Someone may ask, ?Could God not have simply overlooked Adam and Eve?s sin?? No, because that would have further undermined respect for his authority, perhaps encouraging future rebellions and resulting in even greater suffering. (Ecclesiastes 8:11
Ridiculous to think that there could now be any LESS respect for His authority based on his record of doing nothing except what exists only in the minds of those who want to believe that the "Awesome Ruler of the Universe" is somehow taking notice of them and comforting and/or helping them as a reward for their belief, while leaving the majority of mankind to suffer, sometimes horrendously.
Wonderful essay, Norm. Great topic, dh.
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upside/down
Someone aske to define "worship"
IMO it's merely being thankful and obedient. God isn't an egocentric entity iin need of constant accolades from us. It's organized religion that tells us that. I know the word "obedient" is very open ended, and that's why I believe you decide what that means by your investigation of all the info at hand (free will).
For example I am thankful to "god" for many things but I DON'T go around constantly "praying" to prove to myself and Him that I am thankful. It's intersting that on occasion my children will thank me for differnt things (including meals) when they are moved to do so- I don't make them, and I know they are always thankful whether they say it or not. But "good manners" on occassion dictate an audible response (to humans). Who of you doesn't witness some miraculous manifestation of the creation or life and in his heart say "thanks"? It's certainly not a bad thing nor is it demeaning. Religion is what wants you to feel demeaned!! Not God.
The Bible says Adam "talked" with "God" in the afternoons. Doesn't that sound nice. He didn't grovel and beg.
God I love these smilies...
u/d
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seeitallclearlynow
The Bible says Adam "talked" with "God" in the afternoons. Doesn't that sound nice. He didn't grovel and beg.
No, he didn't grovel and beg; but as soon as he supposedly ate some fruit that wasn't his, using poor judgement and apparently desperately clinging to the wonderful real-time gift he's been given, he was banished for all eternity from any friendship with 'god'. Yes, just lovely.
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upside/down
I don't know man he only had one "rule" and couldn' keep it? And it wasn't even a tough one. What if God had said something like here's your drop dead gorgeous wife, you can only have "relations" with her "missionary style", and only to make babies. NOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN EVIL!
Adam was an asshole (apparently). He had to go against every fiber of his perfect being to perfom that task, he had to willfully override his inclination to do the right thing. Unlike us, where we find it easy to be bad. He made a poor (free will ) choice, period.He f*cked all of us in the process.
Tell me is that hard to acknowldge a "creator" for being The Creator. Does it really chaffe that badly. Or is it hard to submit to those who claim to represent the "creator", that gets everyones panties in a wad? Maybe you wish you were the creator?lol I don't think "god" wants to be "in your face", the way org. religion paints Him. He's seems to be very content to be "behind the scenes".
He's not asking us to lie down on the ground and grovel, or endlessly thank him- only men suggest such things.
u/d
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BluesBrother
What gives any being the right to be worshipped ?
I guess the word is BEING. He has to Be There.. If God were just an invention by inadequate men to give them comfort, then of course he has no right to be worshipped since he is not there(Doh!)
But if he really is there and has created and nurtured this earth and our human race, then I believe that he has a right to be worshipped..Just dont ask me exactly how because I have not progressed to that since quitting the dubs.. If we were worshipping something that failed "to be" then as Paul said "We are men most to be pitied" because of putting faith in a lie.
Re the Tsunami, by blaming God one is acknowledging his existance.( Nobody blames Santa Claus, even though he was supposedly flying around that weekend, because nobody believes he was really there).... It has been said already, but the fact is that Stuff happens, it has done since I dont know when and will continue to do so. God never promised to stop earthquakes, hurricanes and floods. As a human race we just have to live on this turbulent planet .. The scale of this disaster is terrible , but is no different in principle to one person being struck by lightning. That is just as terrible if it happens to be you or your loved one. Do you hear the question then, Why did God not stop it? I think not
My pennyworth
