Stupid questions require stupid answers

by Norm 71 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Sabrina,

    1. Is that limitation (to God's being the cause of events) the only one?

    I spoke of no limitations that is your assumption. There are no limitations with God.

    Read my question again. I'm not saying "limitation to God" absolutely, but "limitation to God's being the cause of events".

    You said: God is not the cause of every event. I conceptualise: limited causality. Rephrase it differently if you will but I don't think you can really escape those questions which are triggered by your own affirmations.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Narkissos,

    I don't think God is limited to staying out of our affairs because of a freewill thing. He does what he wants. No, he does not cause all things. Yes, he can stop all things. The rape example was in the God does not cause all things category, but that does not mean God limits himself or in other words always allows the will of others to take precedence over his purposes.

    If a Dad does not break up a fight between his two sons that does not mean the Dad has limited himself to always allowing them to fight it out. It just means that sometimes he allows it and sometimes not. The Dad is not limited, he does what in his opinion is necessary at the time.

    If I'm misunderstanding your meaning please be patient with me.

    Sabrina

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Sabrina, it's obvious that your powers of reasoning are small, and there's no sense trying to discuss anything intelligently with you. You make statements you can't or won't back up, answer questions not asked and pretend you've really said something, and evade the real questions. Typical of Christians, but thankfully, not true of all of them.

    AlanF

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Norm,

    Does this mean that God could have stopped 9/11 and the Tsunami disaster?

    Yes.

    He obviously didn't, why didn't he?

    Why didn't he stop the Iraq war? Why didn't he make Saddam be a good boy instead of a bad one? Why didn't he prevent the Spanish Influenza? World War I? Why doesn't he make people stop having unprotected sex? How about the hungry children? Why doesn't he make the big fat corporations of the world feed them? Why didn't he stop the Florida hurricanes? Why doesn't he just make all religions behave really, really good. And make all governments do the same? How come he doesn't make the U.N. be the best it can be? Why didn't he stop those Catholic priests from molesting children? How about Bill Clinton, why didn't he stop him from making a fool of himself and the office. Why didn't he stop Europe from trampling here and there colonizing and taking over practically whatever they wanted? Why do planes crash? Why doesn't he stop parents from killing their children and children killing their parents? Why doesn't he stop up all volcanos?

    Hey, why doesn't God make us all just get along and stop fighting altogether. Why didn't he make the oceans more resistant to pollution? Why didn't he make the atmosphere much more self-cleaning so we wouldn't have to be so careful with our emissions? Why didn't he make us like the animals who forage for their food and are naturally better equipped than we are to cope with the seasons and the weather? Why did he make it so damn hard to get a man in space? Why did he allow the Dark Ages? Why did a teen who lost her whole family in the Tsunami suffer a gang rape afterwards? Why are some of the so called untouchables in India being put out of shelters and not given their fair share of the Tsunami relief by their upper caste fellow Indians simply because they are untouchables? Why is child trafficking already occurring in the Tsunami area?

    Well, I suppose the answer to all of the above is: God sometimes just doesn't give a damn, Norm. Is there some reason why he should? Mankind is the most filthiest of creatures. I really don't think we deserve to complain, Norm.

    Sabrina

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Sabrina,

    Well, I suppose the answer to all of the above is: God sometimes just doesn't give a damn, Norm. Is there some reason why he should? Mankind is the most filthiest of creatures. I really don't think we deserve to complain, Norm.

    At this stage I think we can assume that you have not just lost the argument but also your faith.

    Why is that that the more committed a person is to their religious ideology the harder it becomes for them to say, "I just do not know the answer to that question"? Don't you think that this is a more honest station from which to defend a God?

    Best regards - HS

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    AlanF,

    Sabrina, it's obvious that your powers of reasoning are small, and there's no sense trying to discuss anything intelligently with you.
    If it makes you feel good AlanF to insult another person's intelligence go right ahead. Feel free to massage your ego whenever you get the urge to do so. You must get a jab in cause if you don't you'll die or something. Let me not be the cause of your ego death, go right on with your insults it's mother's milk to you.

    Sabrina.....of the really, really hurt class.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Sabrina,

    Don't feel hurt,,loosing your faith in that OT god is not really bad or hurtfull it is liberating and guilt freeing. No more angry god to please,,now you can face life without any manipulation by an imaginary killer god.

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Hillary_Step,

    At this stage I think we can assume that you have not just lost the argument but also your faith.

    I'm afraid you misunderstood me. When I said I suppose sometimes God doesn't give a damn I did not mean that in a negative sense at all. Sometimes we ourselves can hear of such awful things committed by some groups that we can easily say in our hearts, "I don't give a damn about those people." If God sometimes doesn't give a damn I don't blame him in the least. We are really awful bastards sometimes and downright evil other times. My faith is intact, thank you.

    Why is that that the more committed a person is to their religious ideology the harder it becomes for them to say, "I just do not know the answer to that question"? Don't you think that this is a more honest station from which to defend a God?

    I said, "Well, I suppose the answer to all of the above is: God sometimes just doesn't give a damn, Norm." If you will please note, that was a suppostion. It also was a sarcastic answer to the very tiring habit some have of constantly whining about God. Why does God allow this? Why doesn't God fix that? Yada, yada, yada..... You know I'm a Christian and all but after a while I too get a burr up my ass sometimes and that whining stuff is just the thing that does it.

    Well, have a happy day and all, HS.

    Sabrina

    P.S. Thanks for not ridiculing my lack of reasoning ability and/or any other personal fault I surely have.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Sabrina,

    Patience is required on both sides I guess

    He does what he wants. No, he does not cause all things. Yes, he can stop all things. The rape example was in the God does not cause all things category, but that does not mean God limits himself or in other words always allows the will of others to take precedence over his purposes.

    Except for the word "always" (which would actually answer another of my questions), I don't really understand why you are reluctant to say "God limits himself" (even temporarily), which afaik is the classical Christian stance on theodicy. For the moment being, I can't think of other alternatives than "he just wants it this way" (so he might just as well cause it all) or "he doesn't care," which you probably wouldn't agree with either.

    (Side comment: about "God limiting himself," you might have a look someday at the qabbalistic theory of zimzum [or tzimtzum], which is exposed at the very beginning of the Zohar: the "contraction" or "shrinking" of the original unknowable deity ['en soph] is the very first act of creation, a prerequisite for anything else, including non-being or chaos, to "exist" at all.)

    To me the apory of theodicy has been summed up once for all by Dostoievsky through his character Ivan Karamazov. It shatters all attempts at diluting the problem into time or numbers. From this point of view there is no need of tsunamis or Auschwitz or Pol Pot to get the point: no redemption is worth the suffering of one single child. The imagination of an almighty and loving God passively watching for any reason just shouldn't survive it. What might survive is the Deistic idea of a God that might not be loving or the Gnostic idea of a God that might not be an almighty Creator. In any case, it is not the orthodox Christian God.

    Now I admit that this is a highly emotional and subjective line of reasoning, but religiously it convinces me. To me the very concept of "God" as Creator and almighty is deeply antithetic to the Christian intuition which identifies the deity with the sufferer (even though you are not a Trinitarian I think you get the point). Nietzsche got that point too when he remarked that the God which Paul created (the God of the Cross) is actually a negation of God. He said that against Paul and Christianity. But it can also mean that Christians would actually benefit from taking off the outworn garment of theism which never really suited them.

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hey Sabrina,

    Among other things you said this:

    "Well, I suppose the answer to all of the above is: God sometimes just doesn't give a damn, Norm. Is there some reason why he should? Mankind is the most filthiest of creatures. I really don't think we deserve to complain, Norm. "

    Wow! Christians always tell us that God is just, caring, loving. But now you come clean here and show us this apparently new side of God which according to you "doesn't give a damn" about what happens to us. Well, we already knew that from merely observing the world around us.

    You seem to have gotten into your head that asking you simple questions about God which you claim to believe in somehow amount to whining.
    I understand that you find it frustrating and quite a nuisance to answer, because you haven't got a leg to stand on.
    From my position the questions are asked because I hope that it will make you think about it all, and the impossible position you are in. I guess your latest post here really demonstrate that with thundering clarity. it surely didn't make much sense. But that's exactly what religion and faith is all about Sabrina, it doesn't make any sense at all, that's why you just have to have blind faith.

    Norm

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