To Pintail/Shane:
O.K. Tell me why you say that.
Rod P.
p.s. Ooops! Never mind, I get it now. You were referring to this whole thread re its topic.
I found a big ol' fat lie again in there!
by gumby 179 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
Rod P,
Even if John had never met Jesus in person, he no doubt would have heard stories about Jesus, such as while he was growing up with his parents who certainly knew about Jesus.
This implies that Jesus and John were relatives, as only Luke has it. If this is historically true, why didn't Mark, Matthew and John say it too? This is problematic in several ways (although not unsuperable): (1) Jesus and John are not supposed to belong to the same tribe (Judah vs. Levi); (2) this undermines the so-called testimony of John about Jesus: "my cousin Jesus is the Messiah" will be somewhat harder to believe than "so-and-so, that I do not know (= John), is the Messiah".
Now, when John baptized Jesus, and he came up out of the water, the heavens opened up and the Spirit of God descended upon him in the form of a dove, and a voice said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."
Notice that there is no mention of Jesus' baptism in John: what is left of Mark is "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God."
If I were there and I saw that happen, I would be pretty convinced that this was the Messiah, that this was the one God had chosen to be the Christ, and I would be running around Judea telling everyone this is the Messiah.
Well, if John really did that (as the Gospels suggest), then it becomes quite difficult to understand that John's disciples didn't merge with Jesus', as is still obvious later in the Gospels and even in Acts 19. Not to speak of the later Mandeans who were disciples of John and considered Jesus as a false prophet.
As for the rest of your post, it illustrates the difference between a harmonising / apologetic approach of the texts (yours) and a critical one (mine). On this I guess we must agree to disagree. I am quite sure you can always explain away any of the contradictions I might point to you as only "apparent". On the other hand, I really doubt all of them can be only "apparent".
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gumby
Well hellfire! I thought this thread died a couple days ago as it didn't show up in my post history as current.
Rodney
Now, when John baptized Jesus, and he came up out of the water, the heavens opened up and the Spirit of God descended upon him in the form of a dove, and a voice said "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased." If I were there and I saw that happen, I would be pretty convinced that this was the Messiah, that this was the one God had chosen to be the Christ, and I would be running around Judea telling everyone this is the Messiah . So the proper understanding of the above scripture is that "I myself did not know him/recognize him as the Messiah, but now that I do know who he really is, I have been baptizing with water in order that Jesus might be revealed to Israel (as the Messiah)." So Israel, take a look. This is the Messiah you have been looking for all these generations!
I would too Rod. I wonder hows come when John got locked up, he sent his diciples to inquire if Jesus was the one whom the scriptures spoke of? Seems like he would have remembered the dove thing and the big loud voice from heaven confirming it. Why do you suppose he forgot and had to have his buddies make sure? You'll prolly say he wanted his buddies to hear it for themselves........cuz maybe they didn't trust John.....won't ya?
Gumby
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IP_SEC
Could I interest any of you folks in a fine publication about the life of Jesus Christ. Its entitled The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived. I would happy to send you each a copy at no cost. If you'd like to make a small donation to the world wide work of Jehovah's Witnesses I'd be happy to accept it at this time.
IPSec
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Rod P
To: IP_SEC
Surely you jest! You want a Donation? Sight unseen?!!!
And are you talking about the W.T. Jehovah's Witnesses, or do you belong to another version that uses the same name?
To: Narkissos:
I am doing a little homework on your latest post, so it will be a day or two getting back to you. I''ve stumbled on an interesting site about Apollonius of Tyana, and a comparison with "Jesus Bar Abbas", and having some rather interesting commentary as to whether John ever "knew" Jesus before in the sense that you are arguing. There seems to be a lot of "External" evidences that can be brought to bear on the Gospel accounts, and, of course, this may well affect how things need to be interpreted in the final analysis. Will get back to you.
On the question of Jesus' being of the tribe of Judah, while John is of the tribe of Levi, thereby undermining the biblical statement that Jesus and John were cousins (Luke 1:26), let me share this:
Apparently, St. Hippolytus (in Nicephor II.iii - an apochryphal writing) recorded the following:
Mathan had 3 daughters - 1) Mary 2) Soba 3) Ann
1) Mary- married a man of Bethlehem, and was the mother of her daughter, "Salome"
2) Soba- married at Bethlehem also, but a "Son of Levi" by whom she had "Elizabeth" (the mother of John the Baptist)
3) Ann- married Joachim, a Galilean also, and bore "Mary" (the mother of Jesus)
So, Salome, Elizabeth and Mary were First Cousins. Elizabeth was "of the daughters of Aaron" on her father's side, and on her mother's side, the cousin of "Mary"
This shows that it is possible for John to be of the tribe of Levi, while Jesus is of the tribe of Judah, and yet while still be cousins, as stated in Luke.
Back to you later.
Rod P.
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gumby
um......and why was it again John had his diciples inquire to find out if Jesus was the real deal or not......after god confirmed WHO Jesus was when John baptised him? Did we cover that one yet?
Gumby
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a Christian
Gumby,
You asked: why was it again John had his diciples inquire to find out if Jesus was the real deal or not......after god confirmed WHO Jesus was when John baptised him? Did we cover that one yet?
Earlier I wrote: John most likely sent his disciples to Christ with this question, not so much for his own satisfaction as for theirs. John's disciples may have been reluctant to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, because he eclipsed John. Though John himself was glad to turn over his disciples to Christ, they may have been reluctant to leave him. John probably saw his death approaching, and therefore wanted his disciples to become better acquainted with Christ, under whose guardianship he knew he would leave them
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FlyingHighNow
Rod P, did you ever finish Jehovah Unmasked?
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Rod P
Gumby!
Well, John the Baptist was preaching that the Kingdom of God was at hand, that the Messiah everyone was looking for was about to be made known. But he didn't really know for sure that Jesus was the Messiah- UNTIL he had that experience with Heaven when he baptized Jesus. Curiously though, when Jesus approached John to get baptized, John said it was he that should be getting baptized by Jesus. Also, John was baptizing everyone for the forgiveness of sins, while Jesus was without sin. Jesus told him to do it anyway to "fulfull all righteousness".
Let's talk about what was going on with the Nation of Israel during this time. The throne of David was desolate and vacant for almost a hundred years now, being under the subjugation of Gentile Overlords. Yet Moses and the Prophets had taught them that they, who were God's Chosen People, would be rewarded with blessings and prosperity and power if they lived righteously. They were finding it hard to explain why they were still being ruled by those nasty Romans. About a hundred years earlier there arose some "apocalyptic prophets" who taught that their state of humiliation and suffering was because they were paying the penalty for the nation's sins. They were paying the price just like in the Babylonian and other captivities, where the nation had been sinful. But these apocalyptists said that they could hold their chins up, because their days of affliction are almost over, and God's patience with these Gentile tyrrants was coming to an end. They were relying on the predictions of Ezekiel and Daniel and the like, where the kingdoms of the world were going to become the Kingdom of God. To the Jewish mind of the day, this was what was meant by the Kingdom of God, and that was taught by both John and Jesus. They fully expected that the Messiah was going to come and rule the nations in power and righteousness, just like it is in Heaven. In John's day, a lot of people were feeling a kind of imminent fulfillment of the prophecies. John the Baptist had studied the Law and the Prophets, and he was preaching that the Kingdom of God was at hand, the Messiah was about to be revealed.
Many Jews believed that the coming kingdom was very close to happening, near at hand, even at the door. However, they had a lot of different opinions as to the Nature of this Kingdom. Many, relying on a literal reading of the Old Testament, were expecting a new king would be set up to deliver the Jewish nation from its enemies, and then this king, this Messiah, who would be a descendant of King David, would become the righteous ruler over the whole world. Other smaller groups believed and taught that this Kingdom of God was not "of this world". They believed that the world was to coming to an end, and that a "new heaven and a new earth" is going to usher in the Kingdom of God to be established.
Some Jews thought that God would establish the Kingdom by direct and divine intervention. Others believed that there would be an intermediary, a Messiah, who was more than just a prophet. Some believed that even Gentiles could be allowed to enter this "new world". And so on....
Against this back-drop, I can see John the Baptist "wrestling" with all these different theories and opinions. He may have been sure that Jesus was the Messiah, but probably had a lot of questions as to exactly what this Kingdom of God was going to be like, how it would manifest, spiritual or temporal, etc. etc. John could speak with conviction, believing Jesus was the promised Messiah, and yet still have questions whether Jesus the Messiah was going to overthrow the Roman Governers (and maybe even free John from prison....?). Maybe this whole Messiah thing is about a heavenly kingdom, a spiritual fulfillment. Which? (If I were sitting in that jail awaiting my own death, I would sure be asking a lot of those kinds of questions, and yet could still see myself believing he was the Messiah.) O.K. Jesus, you're the man! Now please tell me what you're going to do, given that you are the Messiah?
On the other hand, John was human like the rest of us. Maybe, after rotting in that prison for a few months, John started to have some doubts about his own mission, and his own experiences. How could he get in this mess? Why doesn't God help me? Why didn't Jesus free me, if he's the Messiah? Why didn't he even come and see me while I'm in here? Does he even care? Yeah, I did have that experience with him and heaven when I baptized him, but all God said was that He was pleased with him. Maybe God will use this Jesus for His purposes, but maybe it will be God Himself that's going to do everything, and Jesus will just be under Him, as His instrument on earth. And so, John sends his disciples back to Jesus and they flat-out ask him "Are you the Messiah, or shall we look for someone else?" And so Jesus right there began to perform miracles in front of these disciples, and then told them to go back to John and tell them what they had seen: the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers made clean, the deaf hear, the dead rise again." (Luke 7:20-23; Matt. 11:3-6). Now I know that I am only speculating with logic here, and I wasn't there when all this happened. But I can certainly understand how a person could have a significant spiritual experience, and then later begin to vacillate. Look at the Apostle Peter who denied the Christ, after all that he had seen. What about Doubting Thomas or Judas Iscariot? All had doubts. Yet they witnessed some pretty big miracles. So it is entirely possible that at one point in time John the Baptist had to wrestle with his own doubts, and needed more encouragement and convincing. You just don't leave a guy sit there languishing in jail for months, putting him on ignore, and then to expect his faith to necessarily carry him thru non-stop. How much could YOU take, if you were in that situation? Isn't this part of the "human condition"?
Now Narkissos has raised an interesting question about why the disciples of John didn't merge with the disciples of Jesus. I'm doing a little digging on that one as well. But, if John keeps telling his disciples that he (John) is NOT the Messiah, but that he is "the one sent on to prepare the way for him" (Jesus) etc. - it seems pretty clear to me that he is pointing his disciples to Jesus as the Messiah. In other words, John is telling his disciples to go over there and become followers of Jesus. I can see the members of the Church of John flocking over and becoming members of the Church of Christ, figuratively speaking, of course.
Still, I want to know more about these Mandeans that Narkissos referred to, saying that "they were disciples of John and considered Jesus as a false prophet." And, of course, I will have to deal with his scriptural reference in Acts 19.
Anyway Gumby, I definitely do not think for one minute that John the Baptist would have forgotten his experience when he was baptizing Jesus. I just think he had a lot of questions, and that he had his moments of spiritual and human weakness for the reasons stated above.
Regards!
Rod P.