Stilla.....come again?
Gumby
I found a big ol' fat lie again in there!
by gumby 179 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
Rod P
Hello Gumby!
No, I am not yet ready to try and answer the contradiction you brought up. But I'm working on it.
However, I have to jump in here with a few observations.
There seems to be a lot of posters following your thread that are pretty cynical, even bitter, about the God of the Bible. You all sound like you have some kind of deep down pain inside as to the bad ol' God who treats his creatures so mean. I'll bet if you met God face to face (Yeah, I know, "Assuming there is a God") and He threatened you with your own destruction, you would probably raise your fist at him defiantly, as you were cast into oblivion.
YOU ARE whatever bothers you! As most of us have all been disfellowshipped by the WT Organization, we probably went off and contemplated a lot about our fates and how we had been treated. Many of us became very bitter, even hostile. Many of us also became cynical, and decided not to believe in anything, let alone what the Society had been feeding us "all these years". Further, a great many of us went off and did an awful lot of research from sources outside the WT. And of course, there was that handy-dandy Internet, which I understand the Witnesses are now calling "the devil's playground". We discovered a whole new world of alternative ideas, alternative interpretations, and also one immense pile of articles about all the Cults, JW's being one of them. We were "arming ourselves to the teeth" ready to take on that bad old JW Organization who wrecked our lives. And of course, now anything goes! There's no-one there anymore to tell you what you can or cannot read. So we launched ourselves into this Cornucopia of ideas and opinions, including Atheist sites, etc. I suspect, Gumby, you revelled in that "playground", and, of course, they just love to bash God and the Bible. With their parodies and puns, they loved to insult God, to point out his vengefulness, his jealosies, his unjustices and his murderous ways. Of course, we being his creatures, God just loved to play with us, and sometimes He just got tired of us all and squashed us like bugs (eg. the Flood). So, I want to say that I understand a bit of what "makes you tick, and what you must be going thru, because I can relate and share a lot of what you all are feeling.
But you also know, or at least I hope you do, that life is still worth while, and we do not necessarily have to give up and turn into unhappy skeptics with an axe to grind. There are times I have felt like that. Then I would go for a long walk in a beautiful park and smell the flowers, and watch the birds, and listen to the wind in the trees, and the surf on the ocean, and watch the sunset at dusk and the moon and stars on a clear night, and my sense of awe and wonderment would return. How can all this just happen from some "big bang" billions of years ago, and then all life in the Universe sprang into being out of pure random chance probability. And let's say that that first cell of life came into being, Now it had to find enough food of the right kind in order to live. What are the chances of those two things (life and food to sustain it) randomly happening together at the same time. It boggles the mind what the Atheist would ask us to swallow! That is why I think and believe there is a God behind this Universe. And yet, having gotten into the debate as to whether there is a "First Cause" or not, I know that one cannot PROVE that there is a God or that there is not a God. It becomes a matter of personal choice as to what you believe. On the other hand, I am reminded of the expression "There are no atheists in the fox holes."
In terms of the Bible, I too have many problems and issues about it. I seriously question the story of the Flood, because when it talks about the whole world being buried in water above even the highest mountain, the amount of water that would require just doesn't make sense. Where would that much water come from? (Yeah, I know the WT talks about the water canopy that was above the earth, but I still question it. Will get into this on another thread.) Also, some recent archeological findings show a very plausible explanation of the flood taking place in the area of the Black Sea, and that the people who lived there regarded this as the "whole world". Today we would say "the whole KNOWN world. There is a big difference. I will be getting into the whole flood question at a later date.
In terms of the Bible, I have a problem with the two accounts of Creation in Genesis 1 and 2. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the account was taken from the Epic of Gilgamesh, rather than attributing the authorship to Moses. More on that later.
In terms of the Bible, I have a problem with the "anthropomorphic" concept of deity. It seems that God or Jehovah of the Old Testament is cast in the light of being almost "human" with all of our emotions of love, hate, jealousy, lust for power, etc. And, of course, God is at the top of the food chain. Well, I think that man has made God in man's image, rather than God having made man in God's image. Therein is the real problem with all these things that God has purportedly done to His creatures. Could it be that things "happened" to the Israelites, who then put their own "spin" on the story, rationalizing how and why God did so and so to them. If they lost, it was because they had turned away from God, or practiced idolatry, or did sinful acts, etc, etc,- so God had to punish them. If they were winning in some of those battles, then it was God that caused the victories and blessed His Chosen People.
In terms of the Bible, I have as much difficulty with how the many books ended up being included in the Bible, as I do with all of the other books worthy of equal consideration that ended up being rejected as uninspired and not of God. I think this "choosing" was more about politics and power and control over the masses, that motivated those who were in a position to vote which ones should be included in the Bible and which ones shouldn't. Did you know that the Book of Revelation made it into the Bible by a "majority vote" of just ONE Vote; that's how close it came to not being included in the Bible. Now, if some documents had content that was not in total agreement with certain doctrines or teachings of other books that were already accepted as Scripture, then they pronounced it as uninspired and rejected it. Hold on there guys! Not so fast! Let's have another look at the things you have rejected. That's why I will have a lot to say about the Gnostics, especially the Gospel of Thomas, which I dearly love. It teaches that we do not need a Church or Organization to find God.
So you see, Gumby, I hear what you are saying when you point out contradictions in the Bible, and call them "Big Fat Lies". The problem is, this comes across as being from someone who is "bitter", and maybe that is sending the wrong message. I entered your little game about John and Mark, and I am still playing with it. But I am not the kind of "Defender of the Faith" that I see "A Christian" is. At the same time, I am playing the game with you because my message to you is to "Be careful, you do not become guilty of erecting a 'straw man', and then proceeding to tear it apart." That would be doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason, even though in the "bigger picture" you may be correct in destroying the "Image" of the mythical version of God as portrayed in the O.T., or at least of what the JW's and other Church Organizations say is being taught in the Bible.
I would also caution that we do not do what a lot of atheists do, when they try to destroy the idea of God and the Bible (and, of course) ALL Religion at any cost. But in doing so, they become like that piece of Mercury we used to play with in high school chemistry class. You put the mercury on the counter, and you try to touch it; it moves over there. You touch it again, and it moves over here. You can never pin it down, because it never stays in one place. It is simply elusive. Now, when you bring up an issue from the Bible, and others enter the discussion, and actually establish a few good points, maybe even demonstrate that your premise is wrong, or your facts are inaccurate, or your reasoning is faulty, etc., then rather than accept or acknowledge that, you introduce a whole new topic that swerves everyone off the topic, thereby taking the "heat" off you. This is what I mean about turning into a piece of Mercury when participating in a debate. That is not fair, and it is being elusive. Having said that, I am also very aware that a lot of Christian apologists are every bit as guilty of the very same tactics when they enter into discussion and debate. The only difference is, they must prove God and the Bible at any cost, and so the end justifies the means. So my advice here is that this applies equally to people on both sides of a debate. Just like in Parliament, there are what are called "Rules of Order" which are designed to keep things fair and equal opportunity for all sides. Enough said!
One more thing! Any philosophy that cannot be taken out in the sunshine once in a while and had a good laugh over it, isn't worth keeping. So, if shit were wit, we ought to be able to "laugh it off"!
LOL
Rod P.
-
FlyingHighNow
I'll bet if you met God face to face (Yeah, I know, "Assuming there is a God") and He threatened you with your own destruction, you would probably raise your fist at him defiantly, as you were cast into oblivion.
You know what, I'd tell him the same thing I said on this thread. Now, I say that the Bible is not pure in its present form. It has been messed with by many others than just the JWs. I believe men have made most people's Bible God into the murderous, cold hearted jerk that he is. Do I believe the real god is like they paint him? No I do not. 1 John 4:8 says that God is love. 1 Corinthians the 13th chapter defines very clearly what love is. It even tells that love is not jealous. How many times does the old testament tell us that Jehovah is a jealous god? I believe some of the Bible speaks truth. The loving parts. The parts that attribute Satanic behavior to God: no way do they hold up to 1 Corinthians 13 or 1 John 4:8.
So a lot of people still feel comfortable believing that God loves to destroy people or even burn and torture them forever. To each his own. I believe that kind of behavior is better attributed to Satan. You worship your murderous God and call him loving. I'll pay my thanks the real God of love who would never torture anyone, murder women and children or overlook the extenuating circumstances of anyone: we ALL have them.
-
Satanus
Flying
I'll pay my thanks the real God of love who would never torture anyone, murder women and children or overlook the extenuating circumstances of anyone:
Very nice, but if this god does indeed exist, then you are still left w the fact that he is a do nothing. All of nature is based on suffering as one naimal eats another. Species appear, living for perhaps millions of yrs, only to go extinct forever due to natural disasters. Similarly, in the unverse, stars devour other stars, black holes rip apart stars, colliding galaxies steal each other's stars. Not that inanimate objects suffer, but it is destruction on a massive scale, none the less.
On the other hand, if we see the universe as a reflection of it's creator (if it was indeed created) then that creator is very flawed, not all knowing, not a worker of perfection. It is flawed, unable to create without destroying, unable to love without torturing, if indeed it does love.
S
-
FlyingHighNow
Satanus, I believed what I wrote above before I was a JW, as a child and a teenager. I believe it now. I had copied the booklet below to my desktop and neglected to read it. Andy read it and shared with me.He found it very encouraging, being raised in the Catholic Church, but never swallowing what they taught. I then printed it up and read it just last week.
The article addresses your idea about the creation being flawed because the creator is flawed. I am not sure I agree with everything this booklet says, but it's very good food for thought. And something I am going to look into more. Please read and let me know what you think. Gumby has read 8 chapters and hopefully he will finish the rest and share his feelings and ideas about it.
-
Satanus
Yes, gnosticism. I read this a while ago, when melmac posted a reference to it. It agrees perfectly w the observations i stated in my previous post.
S
-
FlyingHighNow
Yes, gnosticism. I read this a while ago, when melmac posted a reference to it. It agrees perfectly w the observations i stated in my previous post.
S
That booklet shows compelling evidence that Jehovah is not the almighty God of love that 1 John 4:8 speaks of. I am not sure why the biggest head honcho allows the suffering here on earth.
-
Satanus
According to the gnostic theory, the head honcho is doing the best that it can. It is not that smart. It could be that we, as souls, as points of light arising from 'the light' have incarnated in animal bodies in order to help in the elevation of the material universe, earth in particular. It could also be that we accidentally got enmeshed into it, because of our own curiosity.
S
-
FlyingHighNow
Satanus,the good thing is that we are free now to look into other things. I know one thing though, the god that many christians believe in is not a god of love. It amazes me how twisted logic can get when it comes to their god and the kind of "love" he shows to them and what they will accept from him. Yes, it's loving to throw good people into a fiery torment forever because that didn't do that little: Jesus I ask you into my heart and accept you as my savior----prayer. My christian, exjw friend always says, "Oh but Heather, Jesus says no one is good but God."
*Shaking my head* I'm not perfect, but I think I'm pretty dang good.
-
Satanus
You must be goddess. Jesus said that we are gods/god.
S