New Software Program Purports to Prove Evolution

by Room 215 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Researchers at the University of Michigan hae developed a software program that purports to replicate the process of random selection and that incontrovertibly proves evolution. It's named Avida, and is freely available via internet download. It's all explained in the February issue of Discover magazine.

    The article says that creationists are downloading in efforts to refute it, but aside from minor glitches, have thus far proven futile. ``We're glad for their efforts; we've got an army of thousands of bug catchers, " say the UM researchers in reference to them.

    Fascinating reading; but this vinication of the random selection process is of itself a product of -- dare I say it -- intelligent design!

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    this vinication[sic] of the random selection process is of itself a product of -- dare I say it -- intelligent design!

    Now that's tricky!

  • seeitallclearlynow
  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    Kind of like Abulafia, if you've ever read Umberto Eco.

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    My argument for intelligent design of life is the evidence of incredible variety of form and function from an incredibly simple base. I have seen similarities between computer software and life ever since I learned how software was made.

    From simple language elements (the simplest actual "programming languages" may have no more than thirty commands) a wide variety of applications can be developed meeting a host of demands. These applications can be modified to adapt to a different environmental requirement. Using more complex languages with more language elements, can even "learn" to adapt on their own to changing conditions in their environment. All from 0s and 1s.

    Parallel? I see a striking one. All life, from all kingdoms of recognized life, is formed from DNA, comprised of variously arranged codons of TGAC. With very few exceptions (usually in the arena of variance in which codon prompts the use of which acid) all cellular life maintains and replicates itself using mRNA comprised of UGAC.

    A very simple codeset producing an mind-bogglingly incredible variety of lifeforms - plant, animal, and difficult to classify. Until humans started writing computer code, a similar comparison could not be drawn between any product of man's design and the origination of life. We now know for a certainty, wide variety in form and function from a very simple basis is a mark of human design - whether it is also a mark of design for life is for each individual to decide.

    Curiously,
    OldSoul

  • VM44
    VM44

    Jerry Bergman and Doug Sharp have produced a MS Access program to refute Richard Dawkin's computer simulation claiming to show that random events can produce something meaningful.

    I do not have MS Access, does anyone know of some Open Source software that could run Bergman and Sharp's example?

    http://www.rae.org/MutationProgram.htm

    Dawkins? Blind Watchmaker Thesis Refuted

    By Jerry Bergman and Doug Sharp

    Download Simulation Program

    (requires Microsoft Access 2000 or XP)
    Microsoft Access 97 Version

    Abstract: In his book, The Blind Watchmaker, Richard Dawkins produced a computer simulation to show that within a relatively small number of 43 generations random mutations can produce a meaningful result. He set as the goal for the program to produce the phrase: ?Methinks it is a weasel.? We recreated this simulation, and introduced a number of other factors that Dawkins probably did not consider. First of all, we make an assumption that when a letter (or gene) matches a desired goal, there is something that prevents it from further mutation, even though there is no biochemical evidence or process to back up this assumption. This way we give the process the benefit of the doubt way beyond what the evidence calls for. Second, if we presume that assumption to be true, then once the organism achieved the ?goal? it is forever prevented from further evolution. His thesis (and therefore evolution) is refuted both ways, for if we take away this ?mutation save? function, our simulation goes on for millions of generations without achieving the goal. Without the source code to Dawkins? program, we can only run a simulation that gives the benefit of the doubt far beyond what is reasonable, and establish limits within which evolution can occur.

    In addition to testing the results both with and without the save function, our computer simulation adds into the mixture several more factors involved in mutations that serve to increase the number of generations. Our simulation saves the results in a table if the results match a specified number of letters in the goal. When we ran the simulation without the save function for more that 7 million generations, we could only produce 6 matches on 9 letters out of 28.

    We also found that there were several ways to do the simulation with the save function. Originally, within one generation, if the random mutation fell on a letter that was ?saved,? the mutation simply didn?t occur, and the program went on to the next generation. The results in that case were that it took between 2500 and 4500 generations to produce the goal sentence.

    Next, to try to achieve the results Dawkins claimed, we presumed that if a mutation fell upon a ?saved? letter, the program went on to try and find another letter to mutate within the same generation. The number of generations was reduced down to 500 ? 700. This still does not match the results Dawkins got. The only way I can see for him to get it down to 43 generations would be for him to mutate EVERY gene EVERY generation. This is totally unrealistic. We distorted the experiment in the following manner to give Dawkins every benefit of the doubt:

    1. Mutations are saved if it matches the goal

    2. Within the same generation, if a mutation is tried on a letter that matches a goal, mutations continue to occur until one is found that doesn?t match.

    3. Within the same generation, every letter is mutated.

    We found that if you remove these false assumptions and allow random mutations to occur freely whether they match the goal or not, you can run the simulation for millions of generations without ever getting close to the goal.

    The ?save function,? therefore, is the overriding factor that might allow Dawkins? conclusions to be possible.

    In addition, we know the following to be true about mutations:

    1. Mutations may be inserted, moving the entire string over one gene.

    2. Mutations favor ?hotspots? and rarely occur elsewhere.

    3. Mutations heavily favor the T gene.

    4. Mutations may result in unusable or meaningless code, represented by special characters in our simulation.

    5. Mutations may kill the organism with a ?poison factor? and stop the process.

    We have added these factors in our simulation so that we can give a more realistic representation of what actually happens with mutations. Even with the save function turned on, the addition of these factors causes the mutations to further destabilize. With all of the factors turned on, it either died with the poison factor, or it took 23,000 generations to match the goal.

    But the most amazing revelation we had when we were doing this simulation is that if Dawkins? save function were true, it would prevent the organism from ever evolving again, not to mention that implicitly if you try to match a goal, you are introducing intelligent design into the equation.

    This computer simulation serves to quantify the problem in a concrete, demonstrable manner.

  • Pole
    Pole

    I havent't looked at this software yet, but as OldSoul has pointed out the problem with such software is that (as all software) it consists of a number of rules and conditions (at the logical level).

    Those rules and instructions may have been hardcoded. In this case an interpretation of what the real laws of nature are was necessary. That's the soft spot.

    The other possibility is that those rules and instructions were "acquired" by the program according to some very generic algorithm. The researchers made very few assumptions about how exactly those rules worked, but they had to collect data, translate it into a machine-readable form and feed it in the computer. Then a neural network or a set of statistical methods would be used to see if the program can learn the "underlying" rules and come up with some interesting output. Here the possible biass lies in the selection and represantation of the data.

    So either way someone must have constructed some model based on an interpretation of "biological reality". The output of the program may be amazing, but this may be due to flawed assumptions.

    I generally believe in evolution now, but I'm very skeptical about proving anythig conclusively with a computational model.

    Thanks for the link though. I'll try to look into it.

    Pole

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Can anyone show me where the makers of this program claimed that its purpose is to "prove evolution"? The website says:

    In lay terms, Avida is a digital world in which simple computer programs mutate and evolve.

    By studying this system, one can examine evolutionary adaptation, general traits of living systems (such as self-organization), and other issues pertaining to theoretical or evolutionary biology and dynamic systems. The power of Avida is that it gives us a controllable digital system in which to study the theories of evolutionary biology. Often, we can study elements of evolutionary theory that are difficult or impossible in biological systems.

    It doesn't sound to me like they're claiming to 'prove' evolution. To the contrary, they've made certain basic assumptions as to how evolution occurred, and then developed a model to test the implications of those assumptions.

    In other words, this has nothing to do with 'proving evolution.'

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    I agree with Euphemism, I don't think the idea of the program was to prove anything, but to serve as a model of what the author already believes. They don't question evolution, so they aren't out to "prove" it, just study it.

    I downloaded and installed the program. I really don't get what it's supposed to be doing. It's nothing like Dawkins' program. It produces a map of sorts, maybe of a population. I never did figure it out.

    The Dawkins' program substitutes human selection for natural selection. In other words, you decide which creatures "survive" based on some set of criteria. You like tall creatures with big heads, so you pick the mutations that look most like what you want. Then the next batch is generated, and you again select the best one of the group. Over time, the whole population starts to get taller and big headed.

    Natural selection supposedly does the same thing, allowing the creatures best adapted to their environment to survive and reproduce, while squeezing out the ones that are not so well adapted.

    It has to be allowed that you can write a program to simulate any sort of thing you want, whether it really happened or not. Just because it pops up on a computer screen doesn't mean it's true.

    I buy evolution, and I even buy that life sprang up on its own, without a divine spark. Writing a program to show that happening would be simple enough. But proof? No, sorry.

    Dave

  • Pole
    Pole

    Thanks for this remark Euphemism. As I said - I haven't looked at the site yet, but what you've quoted confirms the misgivings expressed in my post. That is to say, the authors of the program are aware of the fact taht they've only come up with one possible model.

    Pole

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