Is it legal for the WT to Disassociate someone?

by confusedjw 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    Of course they could have the right to kick someone out - but they really shouldn't have the right to say that I "quit" when I didn't.

    A more apt illustration might be in a work environment. Say an employee doesn't show up for a week, doesn't call or anything. At some point, the employer has the right to declare that the employee has resigned by his actions. It isn't necessary for the employer to fire the employee. This can be important particularly when claims for unemployment benefits are disputed.

    However, that doesn't really parallel JW disassociations in most cases - persons who simply stop going to the KH or out in service are not regarded as disassociated. The question revolves about persons who take positive actions (such as celebrating holidays, accepting blood, joining the military etc.). Have they "resigned" from the organization by their actions or are they being "fired"? Well, look back to the employment example. Suppose that, instead of simply not showing up, the employer caught the employee "stealing time" by not working when he was being paid to do so? Can the employer simply declare that the employee has resigned by his actions? What if the employee was caught fighting, or selling drugs in the workplace, or embezzling? Can the employer declare that the employee has resigned by his actions? Not likely, and any employer who tried to take such a position would probably be laughed out of court.

    I think you have made an excellent point in this thread, and it would be really interesting to see someone who was declared "disassociated by his/her actions" take the case to court. I'm not sure they'd win (those WT lawyers have a lot of tricks up their sleeves), but it might force the WTS to once again change its policies.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    If the WT DA's someone for taking blood doesn't that preclude the opportunity for the person to be repentent? Why do they us DA for that rather than DF?

    In my opinion, the reason they DA for that is that they want to be able to say that they don't DF people for taking blood transfusions.

  • BONEZZ
    BONEZZ

    I think it?s all legal semantics. In the case of blood, think of all the families who could sue if loved ones died rather than be ?officially? disfellowshipped for taking blood products?and then the society reverses policy and allows a certain product to be taken at a later date? I believe the lawyers have told them that it?s better for the individual to make up his own mind and/or decision in such cases.

    What chaps me is, the WTBS treats the people who want to walk/fade away by disassociating exactly like DF?d members??like fornicators and drunkards?, etc., THAT IS SLANDER!

    Watchtower 1988 April 15 pp.26-31 Discipline That Can Yield Peaceable Fruit

    Discipline That Can Yield Peaceable Fruit

    14 The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man."?1 Corinthians 5:11.

    Someday they will pay heavily for the breakup of families.

    -BONEZZ

  • confusedjw
    confusedjw

    What chaps me is, the WTBS treats the people who want to walk/fade away by disassociating exactly like DF?d members??like fornicators and drunkards?, etc., THAT IS SLANDER!

    I hadn't thought of that but that is true isn't it.

    What scriptural basis is there to treat a DA person like a DF one?

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    I still maintain that most JW's are guilty of sins that would be worthy of a "disfellowshiping" and/or a DA'ing. They just know to keep their mouths shut. Only the naive and brutally honest end up before a JC.

    Since when is lack of love, malicious gossip, slander, contempt, jealousy, spiteful speech, haughtiness, self-righteousness, drunkeness, laziness, judging others, greediness, having no real faith, hate, un-justified shunning, etc. OK? Most Dub's are repeatedly guilty.

    But disagree with and elders or the WTS and your labeled "evil" or "apostate" and kicked out? WTF!?

    They have as an org. DA'd themselves by their actions and lack there of!

    u/d

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    What scriptural basis is there to treat a DA person like a DF one?

    They use 2John 1:8-11 - " 8 Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. "

    Since "the teaching of the Christ" includes every single little thing the Watchtower has ever printed (except the things that were wrong and have been 'new lighted'), if you don't agree with them about something, then you're in line for shunning. And of course one teaching is that you must stay close to the congregation, obey the elders, not chew gum in the Hall, etc, so if you violate any of that, you qualify.

    It seems that "the teaching of the Christ" here really just means the teaching ABOUT the christ, which would explain how James could preach to the eunuch for 10 minutes, and then baptize him. If he had to go over a whole freakin' Organized scroll, it probably would take several months, like the JW's do today.

    Dave

  • confusedjw
    confusedjw

    AA - thanks that makes JW sense.

    UP/Down:

    I still maintain that most JW's are guilty of sins that would be worthy of a "disfellowshiping" and/or a DA'ing. They just know to keep their mouths shut. Only the naive and brutally honest end up before a JC.
    I disagree with this. The VAST majority of JW's I know have not committed sins worthy of DFing. Maybe it's the area - NorthEast - but most in congregations up here are moral.
  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    I disagree with this. The VAST majority of JW's I know have not committed sins worthy of DFing. Maybe it's the area - NorthEast - but most in congregations up here are moral.

    Having been a JW in the Northeast myself for 30 years, I have to disagree with your disagreement. Pretty much everyone had their dirty little secrets; some were just better at covering them up than others. If you doubt this, think about longtime JWs - how many of them have lasted for decades in the org without some sort of reproof or df'ing in their history? Precious few of my acquaintance, and those few are by and large the ones who never got caught and wouldn't fess up on their own.

  • Eyebrow2
    Eyebrow2

    I tend to agree with Hank Hill (confusedjw) on this, from my experience in the northeast. Most of the witnesses I knew were very committed and moral. They weren't perfect by any means, but they truly lived the life.

    I did know several young adults that were faking it big time when I was a teenager, but all of those guys either left or were eventually disfellowshipped before they reached 21. This was up in New England, our congregation served about 5 or 6 towns.. I think this just reflected how the general population was. I am not saying that up there we were actually more "moral" than other parts of the country, but I knew a lot of church going non witnesses that were very serious about their faith and morals as well.

    Just my experience.

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Let me explain myself-

    There is only 1 "disfellowshipping offense". Willfull unrepentance. It doesn't matter what the sin is technically.

    Please notice in my post that I wasn't saying that malicious gossip was = to fornicating (although I wonder). I was merely stating that willfull, unrepentant "practicers" of this were guilty of the same punishment in Dubland - DF'ing!!!

    Do you remember in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, when introduced to the Everlasting Gobstopper (which made it so you could spit different colors) one of the children made the comment that spitting was a disgusting habit (said whilst picking her nose) and Mr. Wonka gently says, "I know a worse habit."?-- SOME PEOPLE JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

    Damn (Hank) you're one of my favorite "reads" on this forum, I still can't read your posts without it being in Hank Hills voice- hehe.

    I hope this makes what I said more "palatable".

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