Lets reverse tack a little - if we argue intelligent design we argue a greater intelligence - now lets say that in some not too distant future scientists finally get gentics right and the astronaughts get cheap fast spacecraft etc.. etc.. and we go off and populate a world. We'd start by introducing basic engineered cells and bacteria that could convert the raw planets into a state where more advanced , engineered life would be introduced, we'd probably create a biodome (full of plants etc.. that can't yet survive outside) and for a laugh we might call it Eden.. I think you can see where this is going. What I'm trying to say is that whether God esists or not whether intelligent life made the present universe or not - we will become intelligent designers, we will become as gods; assuming we don't do something stupid or an asteroid doesn't pop over, or God doesn't actuallly turn up etc.
Intelligent Design
by Delta20 234 Replies latest watchtower bible
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onacruse
Pole:
a clearly-stated methodology.
Unless you believe that language is God-Given.
Yes!
If there is (as I do believe ) an Intelligent Design(er), then at least we have these two options:
1) That this Designer made us (genetically) to be what we are, and we can't be anything other than what It made us to be...it's It's fault if we mess up (the no-free-will perspective);
2) That this Design(er) allows (expects??) us to act in accord with what we can be, or try to be...and It can't fault us for taking our best shot (the free-will perspective).
From my side of the table, it's win-win.
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Pole
onacruse,
1) That this Designer made us (genetically) to be what we are, and we can't be anything other than what It made us to be...it's It's fault if we mess up (the no-free-will perspective);
I don't like this option, if you can tell the designer by his works...
2) That this Design(er) allows (expects??) us to act in accord with what we can be, or try to be...and It can't fault us for taking our best shot (the free-will perspective).
Ok, this is interesting, but I don't see much room for free-will here at all if you believe in afterlife. Let's fantasize. Imagine an atheist dies and... to his great surprise he meets his Maker. Will the Designer tell him: "Ok, you've seen many atrocities while living on Earth and there was no conclusive proof for my existance, but here is something I'm going to tell you which will make you change your mind completely about my design...". Will the resurrected atheist have no choice but to believe after hearing his maker's explanations? If so, isn't it all predestined?
Pole
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frenchbabyface
What about a topic about :
- "The concepts of GODS"
From nothing (it have to be something) to everything (means multiple and variety)
just thinking about that, makes me feel that we truly are to expand what Qcmbr said (somehow) some kind of gods ... (and I think that's why we naturally feel - it can seems to be logic to think like that)
Why we feel that as logic ? Because WE are building (it can be in destroying) everyday "the future" (each one of us as interdepedant ... even in not reacting to something we allow something to happen in our own lives, to the collective/commautariste influence and life) is it good ? is it bad ? Do each one of us care about those and what have been lost along the way ? There are things that happen on this planet that we will never know about ...
BUT, what we tend to forget easely is that we still need to use something (I mean anything to go futher on anything) thinking of course it's the first step and acting, so you can act mentally and building physically anyway you need material any kind, I mean something even if it is is a magic/esoterical material (mean even if you want to go very far on the concept itself) it is still material ... and we know we are material (because of our enveloppe) and of course we do suspect way more kind of ...
Whatever kind of gods can existe it still have to be made out material (unique) to materials (multiples / variety) so it's like to human it's easy to believe of self existance of something intelligent than materials able to act with intelligency (good or bad) is hard for us to believe that because we are (obviously material - and kind of weak lots of things can destroy us - from a tiny virus to ) ... Any material is obviously able to creat by itself (Reactive products mixed with time) ... that's EVOLUTION (different + more or less) ... and the "less" is the probleme for us as human here ... what are we in this chaine, if there is no god to protect us as his major creation ? ... we want to believe that we are a God Major Creation, it is the BIG DEAL. If there is no god we are just what we are a material (made out of materials on purpose or by harsard in time) in the chaine ... Big strike on the ego, only if you are able to not care because you can enjoy the life you have in creating or let the time acting (in anyway for your satisfaction for yourself or and others in being good or bad)
So now if OUR god or gods does existe do they have to be our protector, do they even want or can't do anything about that ... things evoluate and even their mentality could evoluate and even their capacity more or less ... Now don't you see that our situation would be kind of "absurde" if we do have a loving god ? ... It would just mean that he don't have the means (physically / intellectually) ... I juste don't want to believe something like that ! (I've said want on purpose here - cause I'm limited to my limites to make it short).
- "The concepts of GODS"
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ellderwho
This is an extremely stupid question, akin to asking, 'How would you account for the laws of arithmetic, such as the fact that 1 + 1 makes 2?' Or, 'How would you account for the fact that God cannot make an object so heavy that he cannot lift it?'
My position attributes the laws of Logic to God, I would like to understand how an atheist comes to a world of logic from a world of chances.
:The "laws of logic" -- whatever they happen to be -- are going to make sense in any possible universe, because by definition, anything that doesn't make sense is not "logical".
I feel they would make sense anywhere because they are absolute truth. If logic is not absolute, then no logical arguments for or against the existence of God can be made.
:Ellderwho, you haven't even managed to state what you think "the laws of logic" are.
See above
:You seem to be the sort of Christian apologist -- a type I've seen countless times before on the Net -- who throws out vague, fuzzy notions
Your right I was vague and fuzzy in my questioning the atheist about the origin of logic rather than why logic is in place.
:Now, if you really want to have a discussion on the origin of "the laws of logic", then state those laws clearly.
I believe the laws of logic are conceptual realities.
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frankiespeakin
FBF,
... what are we in this chaine, if there is no god to protect us as his major creation ? ... we want to believe that we are a God Major Creation, it is the BIG DEAL. If there is no god we are just what we are a material (made out of materials on purpose or by harsard in time) in the chaine ... Big strike on the ego, only if you are able to not care because you can enjoy the life you have in creating or let the time acting (in anyway for your satisfaction for yourself or and others in being good or bad)
I agree,, I like your logic here,,these type of thoughts must be hard to express in a second language,,non the less I see the picture and agree.
So now if OUR god or gods does existe do they have to be our protector, do they even want or can't do anything about that ... things evoluate and even their mentality could evoluate and even their capacity more or less ... Now don't you see that our situation would be kind of "absurde" if we do have a loving god ? ... It would just mean that he don't have the means (physically / intellectually) ... I juste don't want to believe something like that ! (I've said want on purpose here - cause I'm limited to my limites to make it short).
Good point,,we often project our own way of looking at things and assume it's God's way too. If you ask me Good and Evil both have to exist because with one you can't have the other. (I think they kind of dance together)any way Good and Evil are human constructions or concepts that are arbitrary and anthro-centric. -
AlanF
ellderwho said:
: I believe the laws of logic are conceptual realities.
You're still resorting to fuzzy, meaningless generalities. Why can't you be specific?
Your statement is not even correct. One can conceive of the reality of cutting down some trees to build a house on a plot of land. That is certainly not a "law of logic".
I think that you can't be specific because you haven't the slightest idea what "the laws of logic" are.
AlanF
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Pole
AlanF wrote in response to ellderwho:
You're still resorting to fuzzy, meaningless generalities. Why can't you be specific?
Ever heard of fuzzy-set logic?
Seriously though, ellderwho I have the same problem - you haven't made your point about logic yet, or have I missed it?
Pole
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onacruse
Pole:
Ok, this is interesting, but I don't see much room for free-will here at all if you believe in afterlife. Let's fantasize. Imagine an atheist dies and... to his great surprise he meets his Maker. Will the Designer tell him: "Ok, you've seen many atrocities while living on Earth and there was no conclusive proof for my existance, but here is something I'm going to tell you which will make you change your mind completely about my design...". Will the resurrected atheist have no choice but to believe after hearing his maker's explanations? If so, isn't it all predestined?
I'd say that, in the face of such clear and convincing proof: personally meeting the Maker (omG )! (and not the "fuzzy generalities" referred to in the last few posts), well, yes, imo an atheist would have no logical alternative but to believe. But the option would still be there for the atheist to dismiss such an experience as self-delusion or hallucination...in any case, it would be his/her choice!
In a way, what I'm saying is that God has painted itself into a corner. It can't logically and self-consistently condemn us finite beings for what we do, or don't, do--or, perhaps another way to put it: God made the room, and is perfectly happy to allow us to explore that room, dustballs and all.
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ellderwho
Alan F,
:I think that you can't be specific because you haven't the slightest idea what "the laws of logic" are.
And you are?
:The "laws of logic" -- whatever they happen to be....."
:Your statement is not even correct.
About logic being a conceptual reality? Logic has to reside in the mind, its a description of truth.