moral question

by rwagoner 40 Replies latest jw friends

bikerchic

Okay I'll bite, but I can only answer this for myself, I would never expect anyone else to feel the same way I do or do the same thing I would do. I totally understand and accept every ones personal decision about such matters.

You and your spouse are expecting...a test is available that will reveal if your unborn child may have a physical disability... Do you take the test?

Yes to prepare myself for the care of the baby when it arrives.

If the results were positive should the pregnancy be terminated ?

No I would let nature take it's course. Most times if the fetus isn't right the body discards it naturally ie; a natural abortion.

What is your decision based on ?

Medical facts. Life's a gamble you roll the dice and get what you get. As a parent I totally understood this going into my pregnancies I alway knew there could be a chance that something could be wrong with my babies but motherly instinct took over and I felt I would love them more because of the problems. I feel there is a place for everyone in this world regardless of if a person is impaired or has limitations.

Can people with disabilities lead "productive" lives ?

YES! See below:

Actors and Actresses

Name	Disability
Sandy Duncan	Vision Impairment
Lou Ferrigno	Hearing Impaired
Annette Funicello	Multiple Sclerosis
Katherine Hepburn	Parkinson's Disease
Mary Tyler Moore	Diabetes, Drug and Alcohol Addiction
Patricia Neal	Stroke
Richard Pryor	Multiple Sclerosis
Sammy Davis, Jr.	Vision Impairment, Cancer
Danny Glover	Epilepsy
Marlee Matlin	Deaf

Miscellaneous

Name	Disability
Thomas Edison	Hearing Impairment
Albert Einstein	Dyslexia
Steven Hawking	ALS/Lou Gehrig's Disease
Harriet Tubman	Traumatic Brain Injury/Narcolepsy
Francisco Goya	Deaf
Edgar Allen Poe	Alcohol Addiction
H.G. Wells	Epilepsy
Louis Braille	Blind
Sigmund Freud	Cancer
John Milton	Blind
Helen Keller	Blind, Deaf

Musicians

Name	Disability
Ludwig von Beethoven	Deaf
Ray Charles	Blind
Ronnie Milsap	Blind
Teddy Pendergrass	Quadriplegia
Itzaac Perlman	Paraplegia
Stevie Wonder	Blind
Mel Tillis	Stuttering
Jose Feliciano	Blind

Athletes

Name	Disability
Arthur Ashe	AIDS
Jim Abbott	Has only one hand
Dennis Byrd	Spinal Cord Injury
Lou Gehrig	ALS/Lou Gehrig's Disease
Bruce Jenner	Learning Disability
"Magic" Johnson	AIDS
Wilma Rudolph	Post Polio Syndrome
Greg Louganis	Learning Disability/AIDS

Politicians

Name	Disability
Alexander the Great	Epilepsy
Julius Caesar	Epilepsy
Winston Churchill	Learning disability
James Brady	Traumatic Brain Injury
Daniel Inouye	Amputation (WWII)
Ronald Reagan	Hearing Impairment/Alzheimer's Disease
Franklin D. Roosevelt	Polio
Teddy Roosevelt	Asthma, Visual Impairment
Bob Dole	Injury to Right Arm (WWII)
Woodrow Wilson	Learning Disability

**Now the next question is unpleasant but is meant to make people think and is NOT meant to be racist at all !
What if race was a random characteristic at birth.....should parents be allowed to make the same choice ?

Now that just plain and simply is an insult to my intelligence and common decency. For the answer see the above list and just know I wouldn't characterize a person's race as being a choice of their birth right.

Kate

Edited to add that in the above list many of the impairments that happened to these people happened much later in life and yet they overcame their problems and led perfectly wonderful fulfilling lives regardless. Some were born with disabilities and excelled regardless if not also due to their impairments.

My question is which one of these would you have wished to have been terminated?

Would the world be a better place if they had never been allowed to be born?

rwagoner

bikerchic...
Thanks for your post...as you can see from my recent post, I agree with your points.
I certainly do not mean to insult or offend anyone with the question of race...it is mearly used to prove my point. If the thought of aborting because of race is violently distasteful to most people...then why is it okay for disabilities ? We dont know what will happen to that child. I am disabled from birth and yet have a wife (non-disabled), 2 kids (non-disabled) own my own business, have met the last 4 Presidents and am very "productive".
As a person with a disability myself, I would not want any on the list, or others too for that matter eliminated.
Thanks again,
RandyW
bikerchic

Randy to answer you:
bikerchic...
Thanks for your post...as you can see from my recent post, I agree with your points.
Sorry I haven't followed your posts much, those darn trouble makers keep me busy, LOL Edited to add I just saw your post above mine now I'm totally embarassed obviously our posts were being done near the same time. Sheese I just jumped the gun...........
I certainly do not mean to insult or offend anyone with the question of race...it is mearly used to prove my point. If the thought of aborting because of race is violently distasteful to most people...then why is it okay for disabilities ? We dont know what will happen to that child. I am disabled from birth and yet have a wife (non-disabled), 2 kids (non-disabled) own my own business, have met the last 4 Presidents and am very "productive".
I was not offended at all it was a good exercise for me to re-evaluate my own belief system and for that I thank you! To answer you questions about race/disabilities it's a head shaker for me Randy because I simply could not abort a fetus period and don't understand those who do for any reason, but that's just me and I have to live my life and answer to what I could personally live with. I know it's the same for others and I give them the freedom of choice because I don't have to live with it they do.
Obviously the choice your Mother made was and is a prime example of the miracle of life! You've done well and I admire you for that more than I could possibly express here.
As a person with a disability myself, I would not want any on the list, or others too for that matter eliminated
Thank you Randy for the clarification. I really had no idea but I'm clued in now and will look at you in a much different light simply because of who you are not what you are. Hope that makes sense. This was a good topic and thanks for the opportunity to examine my own beliefs and to learn a bit more about others.
Hugs!
Kate
bebu

I don't know if we would really call it "race". If skin color changes were random, like eye color can be in caucasians, then it's possible we may sort everyone at birth... or else shrug off the differences the same as eye color. Everyone would be adjusted to the concept from the start, whichever response a society might follow. ... But race, that has a bit more to it than skin color alone. Race has to do with ethnic identity, and that could not be random. It would be easier for me to bear a dark-skinned child than an Ethiopian.
I think that value, in the case of humanity, lies not in productivity or asthetics, and is not decided by general election or decisions in a clinic. If humanity has value, it has value as a whole. It is inherent, or it is not there at all. Some parts are not more valuable than others. I believe evidence of the value of humanity itself lies in its startling ability to embrace its weakest members, even at the full understanding of the cost.
bebu
blondie

Well, I can't add much except I would not abort any child not even one that might have a "disability." I have two close relatives born with disabilities who added more to the happiness of those around them than many "healthy" people in my past.
Blondie
BrendaCloutier

If it wasn't for 20th century medical science I would not be here today. The docs thought I had spinal menegitis, but it turned out to be a severe staph infection of the lung cavity... cured by antibiotics which were quite new in 1957. I have damage from the daily spinal taps given when I was an 11 month old. Including deformed feet and legs.
I very probably would not be here today if abortion was available in 1956 as my mother was unmarried. However, she would not have had an illegal back-room dirty abortion later that almost cost her her life.
I grew up with a neice 2 years younger than me, Nancy, who had cerebral palsey because her birth was held back by the nurses because the doctor wasn't there. She didn't get enough oxygen and damaged her brain. She was totally bed/couch bound, could not speak, was physically twisted, but had some "humanity" and was a real joy. She did not have any special medical care as tube feeding, etc. She was an infant until she died at 30.
Stephen Hawkins has ALS. Was not born with it, it developed as an adult. It is today's technology that keeps him from being a brain without an outlet.
Christopher Reeves was on a lung machine most of the time since his horse accident. Because of his willpower and finances, he was able to make a major contribution to medical science before he left.
Not all humans are in these beneficial positions. How many are in nursing homes abandoned to the welfare system?
What I was speaking of earlier are the cases where it is known the child would not live a very long life. The cases where the adult has no detectable brain function, except lower level function keeping them breathing. (The woman in Florida) Euthenasia, right to die, where the person has severe alzheimers and is totally gone. I have a great-great-aunt who lived to be 102, I met her, but she had been gone for 25 years.
I've met enough mothers who have had illegitimate babies and have given them away. I praise and thank them for not having an abortion. It was healing for them. I also know how gutwrenching it was for them to continue the pregnancy when it wasn't wanted and they were persecuted for it. In many cases it ruined lives.
My father in law will probably off himself shortly after his wife goes. He may medicate her. This is something they agree with, it is in a written living will, and the family is aware. He is a retired physician, and one daughter in critical care nursing (ER, Surgical, ICU). Though it will be really hard when it comes, we all understand.
These are always tough questions. I happen to be liberal in my thinking. I also respect most of those who aren't.
rwagoner

Brenda,
I completely respect your right to your opinion and I apologize to everyone for being a little sneaky in my original post. I wanted honest answers and didn't want to sway people's comments by saying I have a disability right away. It is nice to let people answer and see what they really think of you before they know the whole story sometimes. *Wink*
You are right there are huge differences between having a disability all your life (like me) and getting one later in life. To be honest I think the latter is worse. To be able bodied and then lose that can be devastating.
My main point really is that we should not ASSUME what someones abilities or limitations might be. Don't put our opinions or stereotypes onto them before they have a chance to prove their worth. As a person with a birth defect I have to say that I get literally sick, physically ill, when I hear about parents who terminate a pregnancy because of a test result. What a shame that the child never had a chance to grow up and show everyone what they were capable of.
There has never been a female president...or a black president...but there has been a President with a disability, even though at the time he had to hide it because it was viewed as a weakness. I am so proud to be a person with a disability. People may see a wheelchair at first but once they get to know me they see the man I am...the husband, father, hard worker, politician, prodiuctive member of society and I can't thank my parents (who shun me LOL) enough for giving me a chance at life.
So again I respect everyones right to make a very difficult and personal decision...all I ask is dont limit someones abilities with stereotypes or fear of what their lives MIGHT be like.
RandyW
clementine

well, that happened to my mother as she was pregnant for my little sister. Her gynaecologist came home and said the last tests were not good and told my mother she should get abortion as the child would certainly have mental problems. my parents refused explaining they would love the child the way he will be. and my little sister has no problems at all, the tests were not right in fact!
diamondblue1974

rwagoner...you have a PM
Fe2O3Girl

I had a termination in December because the 20 week scan showed severe abnormalities. My baby's post mortem results gave more detail: my baby had no rectum , and the bowel connected into the bladder, he had tracheo-oesaphagus problems, vertebral problems, and an extra rib on one side, one kidney only which was enlarged and polycystic.
I have been pro-choice anyway for many years before my planned and very much wanted pregnancy. I did have the tests for Down's and spina bifida which were available - the "triple" blood test showed extremely low risk. I cried tears of joy and relief when we got the result. Had the test showed high risk, I would have had an amniocentesis test to give a definitive answer. We had already discussed what we would do in the case of severe disability before we started trying for a baby.
Very few of us are "perfect". My decision on whether to proceed or terminate is based on the information available and what that indicates regarding life expectancy, quality of life, and the long term capabilities of the child as they grow up. Will they be able to live an independant life? Will they be able to support themself? Support a family?
Ultimately, I do not believe that a fetus has the same ethical status as a child or adult. So, I chose to end the life of my first child in the womb - I would not make the same decision if my husband or parent were acutely or chronicly terminally ill.
Bring on your stones, throw them hard and true. Then cuddle your healthy children and congratulate yourself on your moral superiority.

moral question

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