moral question

by rwagoner 40 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  BrendaCloutier

  Randy, ain't compromise a wonderful thing?

  I take no insult and I've not intended on throwing any. I truly believe in personal choice, and supporting another for the difficulty in making their own informed choices, even if I don't agree with them.

  I will keep it short this time...I PROMISE...LOL

  As I mentioned I work with people with disabilities and various US laws dealing with access and civil rights. I have spoken to many people who became disable later in life and , rightly so, there is almost a grieving process in many of them. It can be a total life changing experience and my thoughts and well wishes are with you as you deal with your own changing issues. While SSDI is not my specific area of expertise (talk about a program FULL of red tape) if I can be of any assistance with obtaining your rights please let me know.

  With respect to our differing beliefs I will just say that I respect your right to have them and will agree to disagree.

  Yes, indeed there is a grieving process that goes along with later-life disability and chronic disease. The process is many-fold, and not too different than what a newly retired person has to deal with. I seem to deal with it with varying sucess. SSDI claim has brought up a lot of that crap.

  It took me filing 4 times before I was emotionally ready to go to battle with them and jump their hoops; before I finally cried Uncle because I really could no longer hold down even a part-time job. I think I have a good attorney, who is an ADA and homeless advocate and has won milestone cases with FMS. (The first atty I consulted essentially said I wasn't nutz enough to get SSDI).

  It will happen when it does. For now I have the loving emotional and financial support of my spousal unit. I know how blessed I am in that.

  Hugs and respect

  Brenda
• 

  whyamihere

  Do you take the test? Yes I would take the test...knowing people who have taken the test and seen thier child had a problem and had all info. I would say better to know and be prepared!

  If the results were positive should the pregnancy be terminated ? Its up to the person. Me not a chance I would have that baby and raise it to my best ability and love that child like no other!

  What is your decision based on ? Life is a beautiful thing not meant to be wasted on a issue. Little time is more than no time!

  Can people with disabilities lead "productive" lives ? Yes, some can I have seen it done.

  What if race was a random characteristic at birth.....should parents be allowed to make the same choice ? I think that question is hard it would be like asking me do I want the child to look like me. I would say yeah I want my kids to be like me look like me only because I want to pass down me through them. However if it can be born any color? I guess it would not matter to me because it still would be mine.

  Brooke
• 

  onacruse

  The morality of a decision such as this requires some superior standard by which to measure the good and the bad.

  Absent such a standard, then any decision is equally valid.

  For example, the Spartans would determine what ratio of males/females they needed, and even healthy babies would be thrown off the cliff to satisfy that quota.

  For centuries, the Chinese have practiced infanticide in favor of maximizing the male proportion of their families.

  On what basis can such practices be condemned? Humanitarianism? Who defines what is humanitarian? Who can lay down the law and say that an unborn child (or even a borne one) with spina bifida must be allowed to live? Who can say that partial-birth abortions are wrong (read immoral)?

  If God would just show Itself, then these questions would be moot.

  Until It does...then we're left with just 2 pieces of the tri-partite pic that Valis posted: ethical and legal; and the legal part is really just an "officialized" subset of the ethical.
• 

  BrendaCloutier

  In any give society there are sets of morals that society lives by. It made the death of a loved one, or infant, or foetus, no less traumatic.

  Don't forget the polynesians who practiced infanticide. This was absolutely necessary because of the incest in the Alii (royalty) to prevent inbred genetic problems. (In Hawaii Brother King and Sister Queen were required to marry for the continuation of the royal linneage. In addition, King and Queen were allowed other more favored spouses.)

  Some of these centuries-long societal traditions are now being addressed on Pitcairn Island. Ancestors of the Bounty sailors who were abandoned there after the mutiny, along with their polynesian wives.
• 

  BrendaCloutier

  French Babyface, well said!
• 

  mama

  well, i don't know what i would do in that type of situation because i have never been there, I was very lucky to have two beautiful healthy babies but i have an aunt that was given an amniosystesis for her unborn son and was told to abort. Being a devout dub she wouldn't and couldn't do that. My cousin was born with a condition called hyperlexia, a form of autisum (not sure if i spelt that right). He is now 14years old and in high school. Something I don't think many professionals thought was possible. He has a teacher's aide to assist him but still he is in regular high school. But the toll on my aunt is obvious. She was late in life having him and I know she loves him very much but her golden years will be spent caring for him. She has spent inumerable hours helping him to be as productive as possible. I have so much respect for her as a person. Will he ever be independant? I don't know. I would think it isn't likely since he plays with my daughter when she comes to visit quite well, she is 6. I also have another aunt who had her daughter damaged at birth with foreceps, the result was mild brain damage, epilepsy, cerebral palsy etc. Although she is semi-independant (she lives in an apartment in their basement) she will never be completely independant. For me the real ethical question is if you know you will have a child that will be largely or completely dependant on you for their entire life, how do you deal with the fact that you are bringing a child into the world that will need such care when you have no idea of what the future holds for you? What if you become ill and cannot care for this child properly? What if you die unexpectly? When your child is an adult and you have cared for them their entire life, how will they cope with your death? For me seeing my aunts and uncles getting older with children with special needs is something I think about often. Who is going to care for them when they are gone? I think that if you know you have a child coming with possible disabilities you have to ask yourself these questions. I cannot say what is the right decision, I have seen the positive and the negative side of this issue.
• 

  rwagoner

  mama,

  how do you deal with the fact that you are bringing a child into the world that will need such care when you have no idea of what the future holds for you? What if you become ill and cannot care for this child properly? What if you die unexpectly?

  While I see your point and the question may be especially relevent with a disabled child, those questions could be asked of all parents and all children. How do you know that something may not happen to you 1 or 2 months into a healthy baby's life ? What if you die unexpectly?

  Raising a disabled child was hard for my parents, especially since my mother is also disabled. Raising any child is hard work. As parents my wife and I have put a support network in place and have clearly identified guardians for our children in case something unexpected happens in the future.

  RandyW
• 

  fairchild

  Can people with disabilities lead "productive" lives ?

  Yes, they can. I know many.

  I was born with a severe deformation of my lower spine. The doctors agreed that I would never walk. I started walking at age 3. A blow to my spine from a car accident at age 10 put me in a wheelchair, but I walked again a year later. My entire life has been marked by a lot of pain, and there are many things I am unable to do. Yet, I worked as a juggler/magician in spite of the pain. When the pain gets tough, I wear a type of cast in which I can hardly move, but it doesn't prevent me from going to work in the morning and doing my job. What if the doctors had told my parents.. "your child will be born with a severe deformation of the spine, and she will never be able to walk"? What if they had opted for an abortion?
• 

  beebee

  I just don't think this is an easy decision for anyone and yet it is important that women (and their families) have the right to decide what they can handle. I have a friend who has a severely impaired child and he was healthy in the womb. However, his cord was wrapped tightly, multiple times around his neck and he suffered from severe damage to his esophagus in addition to a loss of oxygen. Clearly there was no advance notice and this was unforesable and unpreventable. However, at birth they were given the choice of having all efforts made to save the baby or not. They chose to do everything they could for him (devout Catholics, but then this must be an impossibly tough choice for anyone given the urgency of the decision and no forewarning).

  He is, miraculously, 10 now. As an outsider, not subject to the emotional issues involved, I can easily disagree with the decision they made to save him. He is severely impaired, both physically and mentally. He can barely smile and must eat via a feeding tube. I think the prognosis is bleak - maybe he'll achieve the intellect of a two year old. He has had a number of close calls with his health and is often in pain.

  The price the family has paid may well be greater. Their older son is all but ignored by his mother. Dad is the CEO of a medium sized electronic company and thus rarely home. I suspect their marriage is but a shell. She's gained 150 lbs and of course, was too afraid to consider having more children.

  I think they all paid dearly for the "baby/life at all costs."

  I am pro-choice even when it means aborting a pregnancy that is believed to be normal and healthy. When 1 out of 5 kids in this country is being abused, it seems there are already far too many children being raised by parents who are ill-equipped to raise them. Until our society can promise a better future for "unwanted" children, forcing people to have kids they don't want is wrong. Forcing a family to take on an impaired child when they aren't up to the challenge, and adoption is either something they can't live with, or something not likely to happen for the child just seems wrong (some handicapped babies are still highly adoptable in our society, but the more problems, the more likely they will just end up in an institution).

  None of that means that the presence of a handicap prevents a person from becoming an invaluable asset to our society. Please don't assume I think one must be physically, or even mentally, normal to be valued or loved. I just think asking a family that isn't up to the challenge to take it on if they don't have to is not in anyone's interest.
• 

  adelmaal

  Do you take the test ?

  I always refuse the screening tests when I am pregnant. I am on my third pregnancy and just refused the quad screen. I do not take these tests because an amnio is usually needed to confirm the defect if detected. There is a higher chance you will miscarry from the amnio than there is of your baby having the defect detected by the quad screen.

  If the results were positive should the pregnancy be terminated ?

  No, I would never end my child's life regardless.

  What is your decision based on ?

  My baby could just as easily be disabled after birth in an auto accident and I would love it and care for it just the same. It all comes down to love for my child (born or unborn) and respect for that life I helped to create.

  Can people with disabilities lead "productive" lives ?

  Yes. I have seen plenty of disbled children who are happy and content. I believe the will to live is strong regardless of the circumstance and it is not up to me to decide that someone else not have the opportunity to live.

  What if race was a random characteristic at birth.....should parents be allowed to make the same choice ?

  No. Granted, I do not believe abortion should be a choice at all. Even so, in regard to this question specifically, if I adopted a baby I would not care what color it was. I can't imagine ending a life purely for the sake of skin color. God created many different races and varieties of people. Who are we to put a limit on that. P.S. I believe I read someone saying this is something that should be discussed as a couple before you plan to have children. I wholeheartedly agree. My husband and I discussed this very issue when he spoke of wanting to have a baby (this pregnancy is my third but his first). I let him know I would not terminate regardless of whether the baby had downs or any other disability. He was shocked and felt differently. He would have wanted to consider termination if there was a defect so we decided to look into adoption instead of getting pregnant. After considering having a child vs. adopting one he eventually decided he could love our baby regardless and we decided to get pregnant. He definitely knew what the stakes were in getting into it though and adoption was not something either of us had any issues with.