by rwagoner 40 Replies latest jw friends
Fe:No stone throwing here.
It looks like you potentially spared your child years of painful surgery, even if he were to have gone full term.
What many anti-abortionists fail to acknowledge is that the body has it's own internal mechanism for auto-abortion, though it doesn't always trigger.
(((hugs)))
Bring on your stones, throw them hard and true. Then cuddle your healthy children and congratulate yourself on your moral superiority.
Wow...how to begin. I dont recall saying anything disrespectful and infact said that I respected that people have the right to make difficult and personal decisions. I dont ever recall trying or even coming off as morally superior, I just see things from a differnt perspective....from a wheelchair. I dont intend to throw stones and truely grieve for your loss.
I didn't say there is one answer or that my opinion was the only right one... all I asked was that people not automatically assume that a disable child will not be productive in later life or that the quality of their lives will be terrible. You mention that you would consider if they would be able to support themselves or a family. I never thought that I would find a woman who would see past my wheelchair and twisted legs and see me as a "man". They all loved me like a brother and thought I was fun to be with and a great guy...well...expect for my problems. But then I met my wife (married almost 15 years now) and she didn't have to see past the wheelchair because she never saw it in the first place.
I know a lot of people, some with what even I would say are severe disabilities and they are more successful and productive then some non-disabled people I know.
All I asked for was a chance, a chance for someone to push themselves and strive to beat the odds and prove themselves. If tests show catastrophic issues then tough decision are made, as you sadly know all too well, but I wanted to make people think a little. I grew up with a disability and I survived, in fact it wasn't even all that terrible since it was all I knew. I just hope that, in most cases, we all don't automatically assume that their lives would be tragic, unproductive and a without meaning or purpose just because they may be disabled.
We differ on our pro-life/choice views and that is fine. To me innocent life is precious...whether a fetus or someone who has had a severe stroke and is now viewed as a burden on the family or a person who is terminally ill. I respect the rights of others to their opinions as I would hope they would respect my right to mine.
Not here to preach just was hoping to generate some discussion on the issue as I work in the field and alway like hearing what others who may not be as deeply involved think.
I can understand if my post hit a nerve but it was clearly, as I stated several times, not meant to offend anyone. It was to generate a little discussion and hopefully make us all think, thats all.
RandyW
(((((Randy)))))
My stone throwing comments were not directed at you. I am very sorry if I upset you. I think this is an interesting topic. I really believe that it is something that people planning to be parents should consider and discuss - the fact that we had made a horrible situation less traumatic.
What I am trying to get across is that, in my opinion, simply holding a "pro-life", i.e. anti-abortion viewpoint, is a facile response to an extremely difficult and complex and ultimately subjective issue, where every case is different.
I might add, that being pro-choice means I would defend anyone's right to bring a child into the world.
(((((FE)))))
Thanks for the post. I was more upset that I might have been insensitive and offended you.
I agree with you that, whatever your stance on the issue, parents need to use the information that they have and make painful and difficult decisions.
RandyW
Sorry I miss time, but the subject catched me ...
gonna read the entire topic later (just trying to say something before I forget)
When it comes to parents, the first responsability is to know if I'm ready to give to that baby all what he will need (however he/she is) ... lot of love and attention all this with lots of patience and understanding (him/myself/others) ...
Am I ready ? (me alone) If not, and in knowing I can die at any time, who will love him/her and take care of him/her ? If I don't feel the environement/context safe enough for the baby (relating to what he/she/we will have to deal with), I for once would probably considere seriously to abort in time ...
In such case, people need a strong steady mental to realay on, (the kid will have to have it too - if not you will need to be there for both for everything = your responsability = strong mental for 2) Not being ready means more troubles expected for both and more (familly), also once the baby is there, there is no return everybody have to take responsability ! (they can or they cannot !)
... ABLE or NOT ? If not I'm about to waste both lifes if not more, all the relatives (father / bro-sis / ...) and people related to his life - cause again it is not only about ethic about "a life" but "lives" (those who are already there) - it's about the risks and pain for the baby and all the people related ... are they ready ? Do I have the right to make this decision for everybody ... IN FACT ... only if I'm READY to handle it all ALONE ... If not it's like thinking in advance that others will take care, and that you're baby won't really need you ... that's not taking responsability ... LOVE does a lot ... but we are still human and again we can die).
Some people are forced into a solution or an other ... But it have to be their choice (well informed) for them to make the right choice and handle it for the best .
Also it's not about productivity it's about love and understanding (what we miss the most in this world) we product way enough to the point to waste (even lives).
I say bravo to those who are able to take over the feeling of too much to handle (any case), but I won't spit on those who do admit that they can't (any case) ... it is there responsability to make sure that the baby have a chance to live the best he/she can before anyonce (responsability) ... I mean it is your child you'll gonna see suffer maybe everyday, maybe whithout being able to help him in any way (it's already awfull to see others suffering physically or moraly ...) and kids like and need to have their parents happy, it does a lot in their lives ... TOUGH CHOICE ...
No stones here, Ironwoman .
I feel very much the same as you, especially having watched a friend carry a child with no higher brain, just a bubble sac, until the 7.5 month. They were 100% sure of the diagnosis. She knew the child was incapable of quality or length of life at 16 weeks, yet continued carrying the baby because abortion wasn't an option. It was a horrible situation.
Prior to seeing this, I believed that no one had the right to abort, ever. Part of that, I'm sure, was my JW upbringing, but part was because I had no actual experience with anyone who had good reason to terminate. I think this situation made even more impact on me because I saw how much more torturous it was for her NOT to abort.
As far as disabilities of a more "normal" kind, I've seen a lot of joyful, productive disabled children and adult. One of my first real jobs as a young adult was as a teacher's helper in the "special needs" preschool system for Yamhill County Educational Services. It was hard, but rewarding. And I realize that many of those children might have been aborted if it had been 15-20 years later when genetic screening is almost routine.
From another perspective on disabilities... are we simply talking about disabilities that can be seen by the impartial observer? ie: physical deformity, impaired gait, speech, developmental disabilities? I think that there are plenty of disabilities that are not labelled as such because they don't really have an outward display. For instance, as long as I can remember I've suffered from severe migraine. Sometimes I'll go weeks without one, but sometimes it will be 3-4 days of a week, for weeks at a stretch with a migraine. Is this a disability? I'm suffering... does that mean my quality of life is poor enough to have never lived it? I don't think so.
In my personal opinion, situations such as Fe203 describes, and my friend went through, fall into another category entirely. I'm glad your mother didn't abort you, Randy, but the issue is certainly not as clear as delineating "disabled/non-disabled." There are absolutely degrees of magnitude difference between the child with mild Down's Syndrome, and the child with no rectum, an incomplete bowel, no functioning kidney and a partial brain.
Medical science has made great strides in birth viability. I am thrilled that the child with a hole in his heart, but no other issues, can now have a (relatively) simple, though risky procedure to close the hole. With surgery, the child lives a normal life, without, it dies. It's fairly black and white in that instance. I do have strong issue though, with putting a child with no chance of quality of life through endless surgeries, treatments and therapies--only to result in a child that can live without life support, but cannot truly "live." I've seen it, it makes me very sad. Is this an ethical use of medical ability? Perhaps this is a case for termination, or at the very least letting nature take its course.
Randy,
We differ on our pro-life/choice views and that is fine. To me innocent life is precious...
I think this statement is critical in the discussion between the anti-abortion crowd and the pro-choice one. Life is precious to me too. I'm sure you didn't mean anything against those of us who have a different view of abortion, but this one statement really clangs my bell. I've seen/heard it from anti-abortion people over and over. It insinuates that if someone is pro-choice they could not possibly have a profound reverence for and appreciation of life.
rwagoner re later disabilities: To be honest I think the latter is worse
I have developed FibroMyalgia, a chronic pain disorder, and inflamatory disease, a pre-cursor to rhumatoid arthritis. I have had the FMS for 10 years, and the Inflame-crap just the last 2 years.
Yes. The later is worse. I used to be very active, mentally and physically. My parents said I couldn't run and play and learn to ski. I did when I was away from them and in my 20-s. I learned to ski, and used to race sailboats, where I developed good balance.
Being a HS pullout for the religion, I missed not going to college. But for a keen mind, I ended up with a career in computers for 15 years!
I can no longer walk a full grocery store without extreme pain. I can, however, still walk and will only give that up kicking and screeming because when I give that up... well... it won't be the end of me, but it won't be as easy, either.
I can no longer think clearly at times, and at times get lost.
I sleep a minimum of 12 hours per day. Plus naps.
For me, overcoming disability and poor JW judgement, and then to "loose it" has been a royal pain. I can no longer work, even at home. I'm still awaiting Social Security Disability. So far, a 2-1/2 year process. IF my hearing is finally set, and disability approved, it will be next summer (2006) before I see any money.
Yes, I'm ProChoice, and ProEuthanasia. My JWism has taught me that it is not my place to ram my beliefs down anothers throat. Nor is it my place to condem another for their actions. These are very personal choices and between a person, their doctor, and their own belief structure and own god, if they have one.
Kevan (my spousal unit) commented on the suicide of Hunter S. Thompson:
His response was "well, that's what he would have done when life stopped being interesting. I'm not surprised". This is something I would definitely consider. But not now. Life is FAR too interesting! And I have too many things to do and places to see yet.
Odrade,
First as i have stated numerous times...this thread was intended to generate discussion, not judge anyone. I never expected everyone to agree, would be a pretty boring thread if we did. I also know it is an emotionally charges subject and have tried to be respectful of others opinions and beliefs.
Once again, I agree that all cases and sitruations are not the same and parents need to use the info at hand to made understandably painful decisions. All I am asking here is that we not make automatic assumption or generalize ALL cases in either direction. There are obviously examples of catastrophic issues that would need to be addressed. What I am saying is that if we should not simply take a positive test result (without the proof or even suggestion of the types of deformaties or organ issues we've heard mentioned here) and automatically place our stereotypes and possible misconseptions of potential, ability or burden on society on that unborn child.
I agree that there a host of disabilities with varying degrees of severity. Some are more accepted or appear more normal while others are totally invisable. What scares me is the slippery slope that it creates. We can agree that unviable or only briefly viable examples are understandable but what happens when medical science decides that, in the interest of mercy those unable to communicate or with very limited mental function should also be terminated....and then those that can't care for themselves without assistance or who are paralysed should be spared the pain and embarassment..and so on.....Now I know we'll all say it couldn't..wouldn't happen but it already has in nazi germany and even to an extent here in the good od USA. Below is a quote that shocked the hell out of me when I was told about it...
The American Journal of Psychiatry Published a debate on the "Ethics of Killing Children with Severe Disabilities" in which one individual stated...(emphasis added by me)
"I believe when the defective child will have reached the age of five years - and on the application of his guardians - that the case should be considered under law by a competent medical board; then is should be reviewed twice more at four-month intervals; then, if the board, acting, I repeat, on the applications of the guardian of the child, and after three examinations of the defective who has reached the age of five or more, should decide that that defective has no future or hope of one; then I believe it is a merciful and kindly thing to relieve that defective - often tortured and convulsed, grotesque and absurd, useless and foolish and entirely undesireable - from the agony of living"
As a person with a disability with twisted limbs, constant pain and a very different view of what "living" means than some...this thinking sickens and terrifies me. The idea that professionals could think this to say nothing of actually consider proposing something like this in an open forum is completely beyond me.
I also did not mean to "clang your bell" with my comment. Even just from your and FE's posts I can see that you have an appreciation for human life and I can't seem to put the difference that I see into the right words so I will just leave it alone and say that I respect your right to your own beliefs.
Here I am at the end of another long rant (LOL) It was going to be brief when I started,...no, really !
RandyW
Brenda,
I will keep it short this time...I PROMISE...LOL
As I mentioned I work with people with disabilities and various US laws dealing with access and civil rights. I have spoken to many people who became disable later in life and , rightly so, there is almost a grieving process in many of them. It can be a total life changing experience and my thoughts and well wishes are with you as you deal with your own changing issues. While SSDI is not my specific area of expertise (talk about a program FULL of red tape) if I can be of any assistance with obtaining your rights please let me know.
With respect to our differing beliefs I will just say that I respect your right to have them and will agree to disagree.
RandyW
