Are there any 'true' churches ? (page 5)

poppers

Hi myelaine,

'This is the express job of the Holy Spirit.' This statement postulates the existence of something called 'the Holy Spirit.' Have you proven its existence or is this something taken on faith? What if you don't follow any faith, are you therefore deprived of knowing truth? Must 'truth' only be seen through the filter of a particularized belief? Isn't this at the heart of religious contention, that only certain groups/faith systems have access to truth?

When all that is untrue is seen, what is true remains - no dependence on any belief is necessary, nothing is required to reveal it outside of awareness itself. If you define 'Holy Spirit' as awareness then I would agree with you.

myelaine

hi poppers,

Have you proven its existence or is this something taken on faith? I don't have to prove the Holy Spirit exists, The H.S. proves existance to each believer.

What if you don't follow any faith, are you therefore deprived of knowing truth? Yes

I believe that man's EGO is at the heart of religious contention, not Biblical truth.

I do not define the H.S. as awareness, however I would say that the H.S. is the "vehicle" which brings about the awareness of the true God.

michelle

onacruse

No, and there cannot be a true church (or religion, or faith, or whatever similar linguistic label) within human society. All us humans are, by our very nature, limited to an extremely narrow and subjective interaction with the universe.

Thus, while I can and do oblige myelaine and Jaypeeto in respect to their experiences, and the opinions they have developed from those experiences--the fact remains, and it has always been so, that those experiences are "valid" only for that individual, and hold no weight whatsoever in demonstrating that there is some universal truth that we can all, equally, apprehend and comprehend.

Churches and religion are a function of social need...as is politics.

Everything was just fine with Adam; living alone (as a human), thinking and doing what he wanted. Then, thanks to God, along came Eve...and suddenly the need for rules and regulations about how these two humans should interact: Who was here first? Who's in charge here? Why? Who's smarter? Who's stronger? Who's closer to God?

imo, the Genesis account portrays the picture quite well.

myelaine

onacruse,

you said, the fact remains, and it has always been so, that those experiences are "valid" only for that individual, and hold no weight whatsoever in demonstrating that there is some universal truth that we can all, equally, apprehend and comprehend.

The FACT that does remain is that there are MANY individuals that have had these "experiences" for many years. The fact that there is a church within many Christian denominations has demonstrated that there is a universal truth that we can all,......

michelle

Would this not project some validity to the world?

you said, All us humans are, by our very nature, limited to an extremely narrow and subjective interaction with the universe.

Which is why some have chosen to see what the "supernatural" or God has to say.

onacruse

michelle:

The FACT that does remain is that there are MANY individuals that have had these "experiences" for many years. The fact that there is a church within many Christian denominations has demonstrated that there is a universal truth that we can all,......

Perhaps there is more to your post that was lost in transmission?

In any case: How does the experience of the one, or even the many, extrapolate to a definition of existence and meaning for everyone? Are you saying that you can come over to our house, wave your hands around my head, impart the holy spirit upon me, speak the words of God Itself into my ears, perhaps in a secret language, and I will then suddenly and miraculously see the "light"?

Would that you could; but since God Itself has chosen not to so do, then on what evidential basis could I accept your assertions to be able to do that very thing? Are you greater than God? Have you somehow found a way to tap into a vast spiritual energy reservoir that is denied to a very large number of other, and otherwise ordinary, humans?

myelaine

onacruse,

Are you saying that you can come over to our house, wave your hands around my head, impart the holy spirit upon me, speak the words of God Itself into my ears, perhaps in a secret language, and I will then suddenly and miraculously see the "light"?

No, if you want to have a relationship with God you would go to Him not me.

Have you somehow found a way to tap into a vast spiritual energy reservoir that is denied to a very large number of other, and otherwise ordinary, humans?

Yes, and you can too. God tells you all about it in His Word.

michelle

onacruse

michelle:

No, if you want to have a relationship with God you would go to Him not me.

You obviously have no idea whatsoever how much effort I've put forth, since the time I was a mere 6 years old, into developing a relationship with God. I've prayed countless thousands of times, and spent countless tens of thousands of hours of my life, attempting to to get God to recognize me.

Not one single direct communication, in almost 50 years. What kind of a (F)ather is that? My own human father has done more. Or is it that I'm such an unworthy human being that my own Creator has no desire to even say "Hello, son!" to me?

Have you somehow found a way to tap into a vast spiritual energy reservoir that is denied to a very large number of other, and otherwise ordinary, humans?
Yes, and you can too. God tells you all about it in His Word.

Ahhhhhhhh!!!!! HIS WORD

Pray tell: Which "Word" are you referring to?

myelaine

onacruse,

you are right I have no idea how much energy you have put into developing a relationship with God or His Son, and I would not minimized any effort on your part if I did know. I'm sorry that you feel that your prayers have not been heard or answered to your satisfaction. Having said that I must also say that I have never found my relationship with God through Jesus Christ to be a "magic pill" and sometimes it has taken years to see that God had, in His way, answered my prayer. upon seeing this I was brought emense satisfaction. but satisfaction different than that of having known that God "jumped" to answer my prayer. Which would be only fulfilling to my ego in most ways

By God's Word I mean the Bible (Particularily the N.T.) to start with. These words of God do in all ways, lead to, The Word(God's Son).

michelle

poppers

Hi myelaine.

It would seem that you have adopted quite a rigid belief system. What is it that lays claim to that belief system?

onacruse

michelle;

First and foremost, I'd like to express my appreciation to you for continuing in this discussion. You seem to be an honest person, expressing honest feelings.

So, as my own journey on this db has developed, and, much more importantly, my own journey through some degree of self-realization has progressed, perhaps I may be able to offer a few thoughts:

you are right I have no idea how much energy you have put into developing a relationship with God or His Son, and I would not minimized any effort on your part if I did know.

I daresay (and I think without exaggerating) that the majority of folks who post on JWD have had the same convictions about God and Jesus. Understanding your audience is a great step towards effective communication.

I'm sorry that you feel that your prayers have not been heard or answered to your satisfaction.

It's not a matter of "to my satisfaction." They simply have never been answered, in a clear and direct and unequivocal way. Is that type of response too much to ask for, from the Creator of the Universe?

As far as my prayers being "heard": How would I know if they've been heard? For all I know (the "evidence" I asked for in a previous post), I've been doing nothing but talking to cumulous nimbus.

Having said that I must also say that I have never found my relationship with God through Jesus Christ to be a "magic pill" and sometimes it has taken years to see that God had, in His way, answered my prayer.

So, you ask your Father a sincere question, a sincere and needful and pressing question, and it takes Him years to answer?

In mere human terms, that sounds like a criminally neglectful Father, who doesn't deserve the respect of His children.

upon seeing this I was brought emense satisfaction. but satisfaction different than that of having known that God "jumped" to answer my prayer. Which would be only fulfilling to my ego in most ways

Now, there's a concept worth exploring: Your ego (not directing this as any kind of attack at you, as michelle) versus God: Have you considered the possibility that it's your own ego projecting your idea of what God is, into a universe of your own making? Strange as it may sound, that option is as real as the Biblical explanation.

By God's Word I mean the Bible (Particularily the N.T.) to start with. These words of God do in all ways, lead to, The Word(God's Son).

Yes, they do.

The question remains: How does the Bible connect us with God, through Christ?

Respectfully,

Craig

Are there any 'true' churches ?

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