The tyranny of religious experience

by Narkissos 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  LittleToe

  All this talk of horns and shafts is making me dizzy.
  I think I'll go take a lay down - LOL.

  Faith is the assured expectation of things not yet perceived.

  Close, but Heb.11 actually has it as: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" - KJV., or "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld" - NWT.

  I also attempted a discussion on the subject here:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/65037/1.ashx

  Because I feel that it is unlikely that there is a god AND that there isn't a god at the same time.

  But in the realms of "experiences", of which this thread is about, there are surely more potential explanations than "it's God", or "it's only in your head"?

  IF it is difficult to achieve consistent results you are either playing on the nursery slopes of the bell curve or are proving something IS subjective, or you don't have the right tools to measure with. Or god is hiding behind a Higgs Boson when looked for by someone who doesn't believe but pops out when looked for by someone who does believe.

  Or, it's like falling in love and ya never know when it's gonna hit, or it only occurs when God and the individual concerned feel like it at the same time (a bit like sex, when you've been married a few years), or........
  My point is simply this. A black and white approach gets us nowhere, as I think Didier is trying to suggest.

  ...Pratchettian theories that belief makes gods exist...

  I don't know about that, however active disbelief appears to have a detrimental (though not always unsurmountable) effect, from what I can see.

  So, what have you got against horses?
  
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Abaddon,

  You make some very valid points. But to be fair in this I should mention that while a good % of these experiences are interpeted according to ones religious indoctrination there is probably an equal % that have these experiences which completely goes against previous religious indoctrination. Many christians have experiences that have eastern beleif system motifs, and visa-versa. I think Carl Jung archetypes of the collective unconscious offers some insights about this paradox.

  Also to be considered it the Holgraphic nature of the universe and memory,, to me this fits nicely with Jungs ideas.
• 

  SixofNine

  :I find it interesting to note that without exception, those who say it's "all in the mind" have not had an "experience". So are we talking theory or practice, here, boys?
  
  
  

  I don't think that is true. I certainly have had "experiences". If you'll remember the poster REM, he seemed to have had many "experiences" if I recall correctly.

  We "all in the minders" have just let go of ego enough to admit that we are fucking crazy* ;-)

  *but not as fucking crazy as you experientialist :-D
• 

  frankiespeakin

  Six,

  I agree that these experiences are all in the mind. But to be fair is not everything we experience in the mind? Everything no matter what it is, is thru the minds interpretation(imagination). Example:

  If we see something with the eyes it is converted to a impulse which travels thru the optic nerve and the mind takes that impulse and thru imagination and memory, which takes place inside the mind we visualize what is outside of us. This all happens inside the mind. The same with the rest of our senses.
• 

  GetBusyLiving

  Hey Little Toe, I wasn't trying to discredit your experience or anything, its my own issue I guess. Im not at all upset with people who have those sorts of things happen to them.

  Do you guys know of any good drugs to use to induce spiritual experiences? Seriously, lets hear some drug stories.
• 

  LittleToe

  Six:

  I don't think that is true. I certainly have had "experiences".

  Which you've never elaborated on.

  If you'll remember the poster REM, he seemed to have had many "experiences" if I recall correctly.

  Which he never elaborated on.

  We "all in the minders" have just let go of ego enough to admit that we are fucking crazy* ;-)
  *but not as fucking crazy as you experientialist :-D

  ROFL - point conceded

  Frankie:
  I agree that it's all filtered through the mind, though I don't believe for one moment that the mind is generating such things.

  GBL:
  No offense taken, s'ok. I was just responding to what you'd written in the way you'd written it
  As for drugs, I never bother using them for "spiritual experiences". I've never needed them, and it would need to be pretty wild ones to exceed some of the stuff I've experienced. Further, how do you then ascertain for yourself if it was more than just bio-chemical head-stuff?
• 

  GetBusyLiving

  I think its all bio-chemical head-stuff.. hehe!
• 

  LittleToe

  GBL:
  Then it's astonishing how three people can be seeing exactly the same "head-stuff at the same time".
  
• 

  frankiespeakin

  GBL,

  Heres some links to answer your questions:

  ego death: http://www.egodeath.com/EgodeathTheoryOverviewIntro.htm Psychedelics that cause ego death: http://www.egodeath.com/Entheogens.htm

  What constitutes an entheogen?

  >What constitutes an entheogen? John Lilly had amazing insight on Ketamine -- is that an entheogen? Is Salvia Divinorum an entheogen?

  Scopaline plants such as Datura are categorized as deliriants, partially overlapping the entheogen category. Opium was likely an ingredient in Hellenistic entheogenic "mixed wine", serving largely as a digestive stabilizer. Cannabis is entheogenic at the uppermost dosages, such as eating a significant amount of hashish.

  LSD and psilocybin mushrooms are candidates for the most definative entheogens. LSD is very pure and clean and dosage-controllable, long-lasting (~10 hours), and very comprehensive in its effects, and also surprisingly safe compared to others -- there have been no reported deaths from physiological reactions. Psilocybin mushrooms are common, clean -- no side effects -- conveniently medium-length duration (~4 hours), and have a full range of classic effects, including visual distortion and loosening of cognitive associations.

  Salvia Divinorum has only subtle visual effects, and when smoked, is so short-lasting that it's as hard to characterize as it is intense. It produces an intense mystic altered state, including the sense of affixion to the timeless block universe. It strongly affects the body-sense, or bodymind-sense, or mental body.

  4-Ace (4HO-DiPT) stands out among fairly short-lasting entheogens. It seems to have the classic range of effects, It lasts about an hour, for periodic redosing so as to form a fairly controllable intensity/duration curve.

  Amanita is a great *symbol* for all visionary plants, but is particularly dirty, with lots of undesirable side effects such as profuse sweating -- possibly counteracted by cannabis. The best candidate to directly represent visionary plants as an ideal species with classic effects is psilocybin mushrooms, which might as well be called "cow mushrooms" or "the holy fruit of the cow".

  Best cognitive-loosening agents & techniques

  >Which cognitive-loosening agents are the best for contemplating the core ego-death concepts most conveniently, efficiently, quickly, fully, and skillfully?

  There are pro's and con's regarding the response curve (duration) of super-short, short, medium, and long-duration triggers for loose cognition. The short-duration materials can be redosed to more closely control the intensity level, rapidity of increase, and rapidity of decline. However, it is a distraction to have to stop philosophical reflection in order to redose.

  o Smoked DMT or Salvia last only a few minutes, so have an almost transient-spike curve.

  o 4-Acetoxy DiPT aka 4-HO-DiPT lasts an hour. The usable visionary peak window will only be a fraction of that duration, say 5 or 10 minutes.

  o Psilocybin lasts around 4 hours. The usable visionary peak window will be a fraction, such as half an hour.

  o LSD or 2CT7 lasts around 12 hours, with a visionary peak window beginning surprisingly quickly, such as 2 1/2 hours (unless literally swallowed after a large meal) and lasting an hour.
• 

  GetBusyLiving

  I think we have no choice but to admit we've hit a crossroads here. There's no way you could convince me that God has chosen you or anyone else for that matter to get a special vision and the rest of us have to just suffer (apart from showing me the apparition).. and there is no way I could convince you that it never happened. Correct?