The tyranny of religious experience

by Narkissos 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Abaddon

  Good analogy Narkissos.

  And you would still have people who wouldn't know art from their elbow, and people who thought other people's art was not art, but hopefuly less wars over different brush techniques...

  As far as the experiments in triggering experiences of the devine go, if we can do THAT now, imagine what you will be able to do in 100 years. Designer babies? Hah! Designer gods more like...

  Finally, everyone still interested in religion will get what they really want; god as they'd like to see it telling them it's their good buddy, and then introducing them to the sex angels...
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  frankiespeakin

  Nark,

  With reguard to pathology and altered states of consciousness. It true that some psychologist view "all" non-ordinary states of consciousness as a form of pathology at least in the western culture, especially those types that happen spontaneously, but an encreasing number of psychologist have learned to see the difference of those that are pathological (ie..scizophrenia, etc..) and those that are states of consciousness that are a healing process of the psyche and refrain from prescribing any medication that will suppress the process and instead help the person to work thru the process to maximize the benifits.

  Abaddon,

  I agree with your words of caution to GBL on LSD. Set and setting are very important. I would suggest don't do LSD as a party drug,,having to deal with the complictions that arise in a party setting can really just bum you out,. LSD while it may have some fun parts to it,,also has uncomfotable parts too. You want to use the drug for introspection and not have to deal with all kinds of people and start worrying about them,, it can be a real bummer and cause you to fight the effect in order to deal with complicated intereactionsg with people. There will be times when paranoia sets in,, these can be handled easily when they do if you prepare for them in advance by reading good books on the subject,,here is also where a good friend that has experience can really be an aid. An attitude of total surender makes the experience much more enjoyable and very healing no matter what arrises out of the unconscoius into the conscoius.

  Often we are carrying around lots trama in the unconscious that has happened to us when we were very young, which we have forgotten because we have repressed it,,we may find ourselves reliving it in extremely vivid detail with very strong emotions,,this is good and very healing,,we should not try to supress it but allow ourselves to experience it,,in this way we work through these experiences and take away all the negative energy these tramas have exerted on us unkown to ourselves,,which is very healing if with just let it happen. Many people that have had what could be termed "bad trips" found that just going with the flow,,brought them tremendeous healing emotionally, and have been able to live much more productive lives because of facing these things that were brought to thier conscious mind while tripping.

  BTW what is considered to be very transformative experience while being on LSD is the "death and rebirth" experience,,these are considered the most healing. Some have out of the body experiences,,unity with the universe,,and reliving of past lives. All these type of experiences are healing,,our deep inner self knows what to bring up to our conscious mind we need to trust it and relive what ever comes up in this way many have been helped to deal with very important issues in thier lives.

  It is a real shame that this drug is illegal and that psychiatrist can't use it in psychoanalysis,,and instead a person has to risk being arrested and use it with out trained professionals, since it has great potential for much good. I blame uninformed law makers for this.

  Having the right frame of mind is very important for higher doses(which is where the real action is) as some rather terrifying visions may occur (every trip is different even if you take it from the same batch). Most street acid is about 100mics of LSD(in my days it was stronger) and a good trip is about 400 to 500mics or about 4 or 5 tabs which should bring you to ego death. I would suggest if you go for it have some ritual,,ritual is very important it adds a certain sacredness to it.
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  LittleToe

  Gyles:
  I'm not arguing from the perspective of "God" at all, nor religion. I was keeping my comments restricted to "spiritual experience"".

  I see a few "states", for example "open abandon", "experiential belief", "suspended disbelief"and "active disbelief". Again, I state, this is in connection with things of a "spiritual" nature, rather than specifically to do with the "Divine".

  Didier:Nice analogy.
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  frankiespeakin

  After listening to 7 different videos by Joseph Campbell I think I agree with him that Myths have played a very important part in our lives. JC(Campbell) is of the opinion that we still need myths,,they are a function of the psyche that give us direction in our lives and help us toward wholeness. JC idea is that 2000 yr old myths aren't very good for people of today and that we need more modern ones that take into account what we have learned thru science. Therefore the Jesus & Jehovah myths have long out lived their function in fact those myths should never be taken literally especially the Jehovah myth with all his regualtions and laws on things as unimportant as not working on Saturday and what cloths to wear. JC idea is that many so called pagan cultures never really looked at myths as "accurate" history and so were able to change thier myths when thier liveing conditions changed (ie..went from a hunting society to a farming and visa versa or went frrom living in the forest to living on the plains ie..the american indians),,, but merely a way of explaining deep mysteries in a way that gives some kind of direction or morals to live by. I think the same is true of our religious experiences if we have visions of certain archetypes and beleive they are literally Jehovah or Jesus we run into many problems,,similar to the fundamentalist christians.
• 

  frankiespeakin

  What to do if you have a bad trip partial c&p expert advice:

  http://www.psychedelic-library.org/grof2.htm

  Before discussing the difficult experiences that occur in psychedelic sessions, their causes, and the principles of crisis intervention, we will summarize our previous discussions about the nature and basic dynamics of the LSD process. LSD does not produce a drug-specific state with certain stereotypical characteristics; it can best be described as a catalyst or amplifier of mental processes that mediates access to hidden recesses of the human mind. As such, it activates deep repositories of unconscious material and brings their content to the surface, making it available for direct experience.
  A person taking the drug will not experience an "LSD state" but a fantastic journey into his or her own mind. All the phenomena encountered during this journey?images, emotions, thoughts and psychosomatic processes?should thus be seen as manifestations of latent capacities in the experient's psyche rather than symptoms of "toxic psychosis." In the LSD state the sensitivity to external factors and circumstances is intensified to a great degree. These extrapharmacological influences involve all the factors usually referred to as ' set and setting': the subject's understanding of the effects of the drug and purpose of ingestion, their general approach to the experience, and the physical and interpersonal elements of the situation. A difficult LSD experience thus reflects either a pathogenic constellation in the experient's unconscious, traumatic circumstances, or a combination of the two.
  Ideal conditions for an LSD session involve a simple, safe and beautiful physical environment and an interpersonal situation that is supportive, reassuring and nourishing. Under these circumstances, when disturbing external stimuli are absent, negative LSD experiences can be seen as psychological work on the traumatic areas of one's unconscious. It is essential for the good outcome of an LSD session to keep it internalized and fully experience and express everything that is emerging. Psychedelic sessions in which the subject does not stay with the process tend to create a dysbalance in the basic dynamics of the unconscious. The defense system is weakened by the effect of the drug, but the unconscious material that has been released is not adequately worked through and integrated. Such sessions are conducive to prolonged reactions or to subsequent "flashbacks."
  The only way to facilitate the completion and integration of an LSD session in which the experiential gestalt remains unfinished is to continue the uncovering work, with or without psychedelics. It is important to emphasize that the effect of LSD is essentially self-limited; the overwhelming majority of difficult psychedelic experiences reach a resolution quite spontaneously. Actually, those states that are most dramatic and stormy tend to have the best outcome. The use of tranquilizers in the middle of a psychedelic session is a grave error and may be harmful. It tends to prevent the natural resolution of the difficult emotional or psychosomatic gestalt and to "freeze" the experience in a negative phase. The only constructive approach is to provide basic protection to the subject, and support and facilitate the process; the least one can do is to not interfere with it.
  After this brief introduction, we can return to the problem of complications during unsupervised psychedelic experimentation. Although the basic principles discovered during clinical research with LSD are directly applicable to crisis intervention, it is important to emphasize the basic differences between the two situations. The LSD administered in clinical and laboratory research is pharmaceutically pure and its quality can be accurately gauged; most black market samples do not meet these criteria. Only a small fraction of a "street acid" specimen is relatively pure LSD; the black market preparations frequently contain various impurities or admixtures of other drugs. In some of the street samples that have been analyzed in laboratories, researchers have detected amphetamines, STP, PCP, strychnine, benactyzine, and even traces of urine. There have been instances where alleged LSD samples contained some combination of the above substances and no LSD whatsoever. The poor quality of many of the street specimens is certainly responsible for some of the adverse reactions that occur in the context of unsupervised self-experimentation. In addition, uncertainty about quality and dosage and the resulting fears can have a negative influence on the ability of the subject to tolerate unpleasant experiences, which are then readily interpreted as signs of toxicity or overdose rather than manifestations of the users' unconscious.
  However, the quality of drug and the uncertainty about it seem to be responsible for a relatively small fraction of the adverse reactions to LSD. There is no doubt that extrapharmacological elements, such as the personality of the subject and the set and setting, are by far the most important factors.
  In order to understand the frequency and seriousness of psychedelic crises that occur in the context of unsupervised self-experimentation, it is important to take into consideration the circumstances under which many people tend to take LSD. Some of them are given the drug without any prior information about it, without adequate preparation, and sometimes even without forewarning. The general understanding of the effects of LSD is poor, even among experienced users. Many of them take LSD for entertainment and have no provisions in their conceptual framework for painful, frightening and disorganizing experiences. Unsupervised experimentation frequently takes place in complex and confusing physical and interpersonal settings that can contribute many important traumatic elements. The hectic atmosphere of large cities, busy highways in the rush hour, crowded rock concerts or discos, and noisy social gatherings are certainly not settings conducive to productive self-exploration and safe confrontation with the difficult aspects of one's unconscious.
  Personal support and a relationship of trust are absolutely crucial for a safe and successful LSD session, and these are seldom available under these circ