Judas at Lord's Evening Meal?

by LittleToe 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Just a quick question.

    Does anyone know what the WTS had to say about Judas' presence at the Last Supper, before 1935?
    (documentary proof would be nice, too)

    This is one of the arguments that the WTS uses to support only 144,000 partakers of the "Lord's Evening Meal".

    I'm of the belief that he was at the supper, had his feet washed and enjoyed the meal, but was sent away before the "New Covenant" was established (so he missed the specific partaking of the bread and wine). However it's the WTS's potential change in stance, that might be of interest.

    Thanks in advance.

  • iiz2cool
    iiz2cool
    I'm of the belief that he was at the supper, had his feet washed and enjoyed the meal, but was sent away before the "New Covenant" was established (so he missed the specific partaking of the bread and wine).

    Would it make any difference whether he partook or not? I'm sure many 1st century christians partook and later turned away from christianity. Why should he be any different?

    Walter

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    You may want to wait until the publication of the Gospel of Judas. That might be specific on Judas' presence at the Last Supper.

    The extant gospel material is pretty sketchy. In Mark 14:17-18, Jesus was seated "with the twelve" as they ate, presumably the "passover" of v. 16, and Matthew similarly has Jesus "at the table with the twelve disciples" (Matthew 26:20-21). In his prediction of his betrayal, Jesus specifically mentions Judas' presence at the table (Mark 14:18; Matthew 26:21), and no mention is made in these accounts of Judas' departure from the room. Rather, in the account of the institution of the Eucharist the pronoun autón "of them" in Mark 14:22 and Matthew 25:26 has the "twelve" as its antecedent, so the most felicitous interpretation (tho by no means secure) is that Judas was still there. The text however just doesn't say this explicitly. The account in Luke is somewhat different. In Luke 22:14, Jesus is simply accompanied by the "apostles"; they are not numbered and Jesus' prediction of his betrayal follows the institution of the Eucharist, rather than preceding it as in Mark or Matthew. Thus, according to Luke, Judas was definitely present there during the Eucharist. But none of the synoptic gospels mention his departure from the room. Rather, his departure was noted in John (cf John 13:30), but the meal here is explicitly not the passover and the text does not describe any institution of a Eucharist. Thus, John 13 does not clarify the matter; it is belongs to an independent tradition. The text includes a prediction by Jesus of his betrayal (13:21-26), but at the time of the prediction the disciples were dipping morsels into bowls -- which sounds like the kind of meal that might precede the Eucharist, and it is possible that the interpretation that Judas left before the Eucharist arises from harmonizing John with the synoptics, which would place the event described in 13:21-30 immediately prior to the synoptic narrative of the institution of the Eucharist and assume that the author of John simply omitted this later event. Such a harmonizing interpretation however flatly conflicts with Luke.

    As for Judas' presence at the meal, here are some old Watchtower articles that claim that he was not present during the institution of the Eucharist:

    *** w56 6/15 p. 383 Questions from Readers ***

    ?

    Speaking of those who partake of the Lord?s evening meal unworthily, the January 15, 1956, Watchtower said on page 60, paragraph 18: "So let him benefit by the corrective, disciplinary judgment that Jehovah gives him. Let him discern what he himself is, and reform. If he has been at fault, yet he should obey the command and eat the Lord?s evening meal, but do so discerning the Lord?s sacrificed body and asking forgiveness for his sin. Then let this celebration strengthen him to follow Christ?s steps more closely during the coming year." Does this mean a disfellowshiped person should partake of the loaf and wine at the Lord?s evening meal??M. P., Germany.

    This has no reference to persons that are in a disfellowshiped condition, but to only those who are continuing in the body of Christ but who are yet subject to sin and who therefore commit sins for which the sacrifice of Christ provides the basis for forgiveness. A disfellowshiped person is no member of Jehovah?s congregation and may not be served the emblems by those serving at the celebration of the Lord?s evening meal. Jesus did not serve Judas the emblems but sent him out of the house before instituting the Lord?s evening meal.?John 13:21-31; Matt. 26:20-25; Mark 14:10-21.

    [Note that John is cited in harmonization of Matthew and Luke, whereas Luke -- which presents the opposite view -- is conveniently omitted]

    *** w57 1/1 p. 31 Questions from Readers ***

    ?

    Was Judas present when Christ instituted the memorial celebration or not??W. E., United States.

    By comparing Matthew 26:20-25 with John 13:21-30 we learn that Judas was not present when Christ instituted the Lord?s evening meal. One Gospel account tells some details that the other one does not tell, but by harmonizing the two the complete picture can be obtained. Matthew tells us how a questioning arose as to who would betray Jesus. John tells us that before that subject was dropped the betrayer was identified by being given the morsel that Jesus had dipped, and immediately Judas went out into the night. Matthew goes on to describe how Jesus then served the remaining eleven apostles the emblems of the memorial, while John, who wrote his account after Matthew did his, does not repeat the procedure of the evening meal but instead gives some of the extended remarks Jesus made on that occasion, as recorded in chapter 13. Jesus? discoursing and praying with his disciples, however, as recorded at John chapters 14 to 17, were not part of the Lord?s evening meal, but came after it.

    Thus do these two apostles and eyewitnesses of the described events agree as to the time element, for John?s account in no way contradicts Matthew?s as to the time of departure of Judas. The account of Luke (22:14-23) is not to be taken as contradicting this time order either. Luke was not an eyewitness of the events. He tells of the same events, but he does not necessarily do so in the exact chronological order, as do the two who actually witnessed the occasion. Additionally, Luke 22:28-30 could not have included Judas, so he must have left prior to its being stated. See The Watchtower, January 15, 1951, pages 46 and 61.

    [Here again the claim is made on the basis of harmonizing John with Matthew. Luke is arbitrarily dismissed as not necessarily chronological, without any reason given for why this is the case -- other than the tradition that John and Matthew were written by eyewitnesses, which doesn't stand up to critical scrutiny. Luke 22:28-30 is also no clear support that only eleven apostles were present, as it mentions the apostles on "thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" and the parallel in Matthew 19:28 mentions "twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel".]

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Leo:I accept that is their current position. Thanks
    Any idea what their position was pre-1935?

    Walter:It makes no odds to me, as my opinion is only loosely held. I'm just interested in finding out if their opinion changed.

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    LT

    With a name like Judas you think they would've known he would betray them.

    steve.

  • heathen
    heathen

    The greatest man book has that judas left after the feet washing but before the covenant ceremony. pg 113-114 . I agree with that myself .Then they go on into how the covenant was only for the 144k which cannot be proven .

  • Will Power
    Will Power
    Any idea what their position was pre-1935?

    before 1935 everyone would have had a sip & a nibble, right ? because they were all annointed?

    and to add to that....when did they celebrate the first memorial in the jewish week of passover, with the emblems being passed? Since this tradition would have been passed down to Russell from the very first one.....

    Is this annual event mentioned in the 1870s?

    will

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    By comparing Matthew 26:20-25 with John 13:21-30 we learn that Judas was not present when Christ instituted the Lord?s evening meal. One Gospel account tells some details that the other one does not tell, but by harmonizing the two the complete picture can be obtained.

    Leolaia,

    This Watchtower view is false which should surprise no one since the Watchtower does not understand Passover nor anything else dealing with this 7 day event. Harmonizing the accounts does not result in the conclusion they give here. John introduced the Passover meal but only covered events that occurred after the official meal ended and the New Covenant and emblems were already passed. John notably did not bother to cover events that took place during the official meal. They were adequately covered by the other Gospels and this argument over which one of them was the greatest occurred at least four times both before and after the New Covenant was inaugurated. Many sop?s were passed during this time, after all this a meal spread over a large area with many present. Such passing of a sop did not draw attention other than the specific one mentioned and no one else noticed anything special about it. Harmonizing the accounts reveals this fact so such a comparison that moves Judas in time cannot be made so simply as the WT does with it?s explanation. No exit by Judas appears in Matthew. Judas would not have left before the third and official cup, the cup of blessing, the same cup that inaugurated this New Covenant was consumed anyway. It would not have been proper for any of them to leave early and break with tradition. No one would leave until they were well into the fourth cup which concluded the observance and was consumed (over and over by the way) that evening. The constant bickering during this observance prompted the foot washing that took place at this end and this is what a true harmony will show.

    Joseph

  • stevenyc
    stevenyc

    The society says that Matthew and Mark were eyewitnesses to the events but Luke wasn?t so he?s got it mixed up. If they're strong believers in these ?eye-witnesses? then how do they account for a large portion of ?their? books being written on hearsay?
    I don?t think the ?all inspired? tag line will work, because they say the Luke got the chronology wrong with regards the last supper.

    Any thoughts?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    LOL @ Steve

    And yet by an ironic twist of fate, Luke tells us that he checked everything for accuracy...
    Makes ya wonder how the WTS get's around that one.

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