by LittleToe 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
Jesus did not serve Judas the emblems but sent him out of the house before instituting the Lord?s evening meal.
I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, `He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' I tell you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he.
Is that seriously debated by jws ? Am I missing something here ?
APaduan:I don't think anyone disputes that he was there that night (except maybe those who doubt the whole Jesus thing), especially as he was given a sop. The question is whether or not the WTS beliefs changed on the subject of him being there for the last cup and last crumb, especially due to the 1935 "anointed" thing.
The society says that Matthew and Mark were eyewitnesses to the events but Luke wasn?t so he?s got it mixed up.
Stevenyc,
Luke made an error that he corrected. After all they did not have correction fluids like we have now. This is not unusual and shows that he was paying careful attention to this chronology. Luke therefore produced an accurate chronological record of the meal and demonstrated this fact.
Joseph
Luke made an error that he corrected. After all they did not have correction fluids like we have now
Sounds interesting, can you explain your reasoning. I'm assuming you are saying that Luke corrected himself.
steve.
Talking about harmonizations, I would be quite curious to know what decisions Tatian made in this matter. I should see what the witnesses to the Diatessaron have for the Last Supper ... it should be interesting.
According to the translation from the Arabic by Robert-Donaldson (on www.earlychristianwritings.com), Judas was not there:
And one of his disciples was sitting in his bosom, he whom Jesus loved. To him Simon Cephas beckoned, that he should ask him who this was, con- 3 cerning whom he spake. And that disciple leaned on Jesus' breast, and said unto him, 4 My Lord, who is this? Jesus answered and said, He to whom I shall dip bread, and give it. And Jesus dipped bread, and gave to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 5 And after the bread, Satan entered him. And Jesus said unto him, What thou 6 desirest to do, hasten the doing of it. And no man of them that sat knew why he 7 said this unto him. And some of them thought, because Judas had the box, that he was bidding him buy what would be needed for the feast; or, that he might pay 8 something to the poor. Judas the betrayer answered and said, Can it be I, my 9 Master? Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said. And Judas took the bread straightway, and went forth without: and it was still night.10 And Jesus said, Now is the Son of man being glorified, and God is being glorified in him; and if God is glorified in him, God also will glorify him in him, and straightway will glorify him. 12 And while they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and divided; and he gave to his disciples, and said unto them, Take and eat; this is my body. And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and blessed, and gave them, and said, Take 14, and drink of it, all of you. And they drank of it, all of them. And he said unto them, This is my blood, the new covenant, that is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins. I say unto you, I shall not drink henceforth of this, the juice of the vine, until the day in which I drink with you new wine in the kingdom of God. And thus do ye in remembrance of me.
LittleToe....In answer to your question, I was just looking at Russell-era stuff and it looks like the view in those old texts was consistent with the later claim by the Society. Although they don't explicitly say that Judas wasn't at the Eucharist, they harmonize the synoptic account with John in the same way that suggests that Judas left before the institution of the bread and wine:
***ZWT, March 1891, p. 33 The Coming Anniversary Supper***
And though a Judas was present, he was given a sop and went out from the others before the supper was ended; thus no doubt representing that in the close of this age, before the little flock will have finished their part of having fellowship with their Lord in his suffering, the sup of truth will have become so strong as to drive forth from the company and communion of the faithful all who do not rightly appreciate and value the ransom accomplished by the Lamb of God for the taking away of the sins of the world.--1 John 2:19.
***ZWT, October 15, 1906, p. 333 This Do in Remembrance of Me***
Respecting this supper our Lord himself said, "With desire have I desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer." He did not refer to the principal feast, which lasted a week from the 15th day of Nisan. He was referring to the roast-lamb supper, eaten with bitter herbs, which preceded the general feast, and which reminded them of their deliverance from Egypt, and became the basis of their subsequent rejoicing as a liberated people. The upper room was provided for this supper. Things were made ready, and at even, at sundown, after six o'clock, our Lord and the twelve assembled....Jesus [said] that the one for whom he would dip a sup would be the betrayer, and having dipped the sup--a piece of the lamb and a piece of the unleavened bread they were eating--Jesus gave it to Judas, thus indicating him without directly naming him....[According to John, it was then that Judas left.] It was after the Passover Supper, after the eating of the lamb with the herbs and unleavened bread, etc., that Jesus instituted the Memorial Supper which, with all of his followers, by his direction takes the place of the Passover Supper of the Jews. This was a new matter, and the apostles listened with interest to his words as he blessed some of the thin cakes of unleavened bread and then brake them and handed portions to each of his disciples, saying, "Take, eat; this is my body."
Thanks Leo, that's really appreciated (as are the other comments from everyone, that widen out the topic).
Does anyone know if there's anything from Rutherfords era?
He reversed a number of Russell's teachings, didn't he?
Stevenyc,
Yes, Luke corrected himself. You can see this in the text. The blood of Christ was given heavy emphasis by Paul and Luke being trained by him was accustomed to such use. Placing it first was natural for him. The argument that holy spirit prevented such error and the original documents were flawless is pure nonsense. Most of the apostles including John continued to keep the LAW for well over 20 years and nearly killed Paul over his condemnation of it. Holy Spirit did not prevent that. Picking on the text with an eye to discredit it misses the message that it conveys. And that message is far different from the ones being taught in nearly all Christian churches today.
Joseph
Stevenyc,
Regarding this topic and the presence of Judas at the meal. What is the problem with his partaking? The emblems would not become valid symbols until after our Lord?s death. This was after all the Last Passover and not the First Memorial. But most seem to think that the holiness of the event was violated somehow. This is what drives their view.
Joseph
