Ok maybe I need to go back and reread my bible or something, but I thought all 12 of the apostles were present at the last supper...Isn't Luke an apostle??? So how wasn't he an eyewitness to the event but an apostle??? Was he left outside or something???
Judas at Lord's Evening Meal?
by LittleToe 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
Boy Leolaia you let him off easy. John makes special effort to have the meal BEFORE the Passover not on the passover as the Synoptics. John casts jesus as the passover lamb which was killed the day before the passover called Preparation. John 13:1 says it was before the passover (lost in some translations) and that the 11 imagined jesus was sending Judas off to get ready for the passover meal the next day vs 29.
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LittleToe
I just want to qualify again, that I'm especially intersted in the WTS view, and any flip-flops that might have been made on the subject.
Joseph:I personally don't have an issue with it either way:
Pete:I concur. John's account is the day before Passover.
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JosephMalik
John makes special effort to have the meal BEFORE the Passover not on the passover as the Synoptics. John casts jesus as the passover lamb which was killed the day before the passover called Preparation. John 13:1 says it was before the passover (lost in some translations) and that the 11 imagined jesus was sending Judas off to get ready for the passover meal the next day vs 29.
PeacefulPete,
Passover is 7 days long. There were two days of preparation and two special Passover meals involved that were also Sabbath days. Which one is John talking about? I suggest that anyone interested in this event study the matter for themselves as bad information seems to be all they get from others.
Joseph
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peacefulpete
Joeseph you are correct that the word passover was extended to include the actual Passover and the subsequent festival of Unleavened Bread. The two festivals possibly arising from the past as a nomadic shepard clan offering a kid to the gods for fertility blessing (a likely etymolgy of the word translated "passover" is from "skipping" as in the prancing of young sheep, this being inventively reinterpreted as a metaphor of yahweh skipping over the houses of the jews) and the spring barley planting and destroying of the previous years yeast. (1 Cor 5:7 aludes??) But of course by this time the two had become fused and reinterpreted as connected with the legendary escape from Egypt.
John seems determined to alter the tale as it read in Matt (et. al) and avoids any references to the meal having particular significance Yet retains the dipping into the bowl (mix of gunk supposed to be symbolic of clay..) that he extracts from the Synoptics for plot reasons. John also at least 4 times mentions the passovr as yet future the next day (13:29,18:28,18:49,19:14). Yes there have some creative attempts to harmonize the gospels (including your unique one Joe) yet any straightforward reading of John would lead to a different date that the Synoptics. The Synoptics say Jesus ate the Passover and John says he did not. Extending the word passover to include the LATER festival does not solve this contradiction.
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JosephMalik
John also at least 4 times mentions the passovr as yet future the next day (13:29,18:28,18:49,19:14).
Peaceful,
Sure because the Passover that John was discussing was the second Passover Sabbath and a high one of 48 hours at that. Passover had already started but was not yet finished and this final Passover meal was still future. Nothing here to move the Last Supper to before this 7 day event.
Joseph
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peacefulpete
Joe that makes no sense at all. First, there was no second 'feast' on the Sabbath that closed the 7 day festsival of unleavened Bread. Neither Jewish nor Christian sources support this idea. Secondly John avoidance of calling the supper in his story the Passover is inexplanable unless we take him at his word and accept that he has the Passover as the next day. Third, You also have stretched the narratives of the Synoptics by what ? 5 days!? Let it go.
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JosephMalik
First, there was no second 'feast' on the Sabbath that closed the 7 day festsival of unleavened Bread. Neither Jewish nor Christian sources support this idea.
PeacefulPete,
Tell that to the writers of the Talmud. I have read it, have you? Everyday was a feast during Passover week where unleavened bread was a requirement for the meals. This is why I suggest that everyone study the matter for themselves. Misinformation is all that most will find, but if they stick with the scriptures they should be able to resolve all this for themselves. Give up? Give up what? Telling the truth and not the bull most people are shoveling? Is that what you want?
Joseph
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peacefulpete
The 'instructions' in the OT are contradictory and so interpreted differently from antiquity however none kept the 7th (or 8th)day as a great feast day. the first and last days (however they are reckonded) are full Sabbath. Some modern jews have Sedar meals the first 2 nights per rabbinical instruction separating the festivals whereas that was not the case in the first century when they feasted only the first. Mazzot unleavened bread is eaten at this meal and generally understood to be a requirement, the rest of the week they were to eat the meager provisions of mazzot and bitter herbs etc.prepared BEFORE the festival. Some Rabbi do not teach that the eating of Mazzot is a requirement for any night whereas still others, just the first night at the Sedar meal. Let it go, means stop torturing your mind to try to wrest history from these stories. All the best.
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JosephMalik
PeacefulPete,
There you see? All most will get is mis-information which proves my point. Just because you do not understand Passover does not mean that I do not understand it either. For one thing, I am not depending on such poor sources for information. Anyone interested can find more information on my web page.
Joseph