Need some scriptures ...

Wild_Thing

Normally, I do not get involved in biblical debate, being that I am a doubting atheist, but a friend of mine made a comment that struck a nerve with me, probably because her mentality seems to echo those of JWs.

The question was asked if ALL humans are considered "God's children" (was not asked by be, of course). This was her response:

If you read the Lord's prayer in context, the people Christ is teaching to pray are His followers (deciples). Only His followers are His brothers and sisters who share the same Father. Ephesians and other texts also make it clear that although God created everything and every person, and the invitation for relationship is universal, the acceptance of His invitation is not universal; therefore, not all are His children.

Do you feel the judgmentalness, or is it just me? How would you respond? Is she saying that "if you don't do what Dad says, he'll disown you?"

blondie

If God is only the father of Christians, then who is the father of the rest of the people?

Who gave life to all these people? If God did, then is he not their father.

Was he not the father of Abraham, Abel, Sarah, Rahab, who were not Christians?

This shows that God considered himself the father of non-Christians.

A father of fatherless boys and a judge of widows Is God in his holy dwelling. PSALM 68:5

When talking to non-Jews/non-Christians, Paul said:

Acts 17: 28,29 NWT

For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among YOU have said, ?For we are also his progeny.?

"Seeing, therefore, that we are the progeny of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.

Contemporary English Version

Acts 17:28,29

and he gives us the power to live, to move, and to be who we are. "We are his children," just as some of your poets have said. 29 Since we are God's children, we must not think that he is like an idol made out of gold or silver or stone. He isn't like anything that humans have thought up and made.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Wild_Thing

Thanks, Blondie! As usual, you rock!

Qcmbr

God considers himself Father of all but if the children reject the Father...: John 12 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Narkissos

Indeed, in most of the NT God is depicted as the Father of some, not all. But which ones depends upon the texts. E.g.

Matthew:

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

John:

But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God.

If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God's seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.

Paul

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ--if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

However, Luke points to a potentially universal scope of the expression:

The genealogy in Luke 3 points to Adam and his descendents being "sons of God" (v. 38).

And in Acts 17:28f the same author has Paul say in the fashion of popular Greek philosophy:

For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said,
'For we too are his offspring.'

This is echoed in deutero-pauline literature, e.g. Ephesians 4:6:

one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.

Euphemism

So Narkissos, are you saying that we're all God's children, but some are just more childish then others?

Narkissos

LOL @ Euphemism,

As you might have noted I haven't said anything thus far, just quoted...

Btw congrats for your avatar: Harpo and his brothers must be children of God...

Wild_Thing

Narkissos quoted:

Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin.

By this definition, all humans would be children of the devil since everyone sins.

And the bible is supposed to make sense?

robhic

As a tangent and not, I hope, as a hi-jack but it has occurred to me that I never asked to be brought into this "system of things." My birth was not my choice, this earth was not my choice so why, now that I'm here, am I supposed to "toe-the-line" according to Mr. Jehovah?

What if someone brought you to their home (against your will even...) and then told you that you could have all this cool stuff and all sorts of benefits if you did as you were instructed -- even though you got no say in the instructions -- or else you and all others like you would be horribly killed. Why not just tell him to piss off and find somone else who might appreciate his little fascist fantasyland?

I didn't ask to be there so don't you threaten me for not following your rules that I didn't ask to be involved in!

In my opinion, we are all god's children (if you choose to believe that way) -- he made us as his own little admiration society to stroke his ego -- and if you don't want to play his way, it's your choice. And what decent parent would kill their children for doing even the simplest things such as eating a shellfish or pork products or working a job that required toil on the sabbath?

And what about cutting off your child's hand if, during the course of a life-and-death struggle it touched the opponent's weenis? I'd think you'd be more concerned over who won the struggle than whose peety got groped. Jeez, there's gotta be a Gumby bible-lesson in there somewhere!

gumby

Frankly....I wouldn't WANT to claim the bible god as my father. He's a deadbeat dad who's in debt up to his ass in back payments to billions of people and so far he ain't payed one damn dime. He was posta have forgivin me of my sins two thousand years ago ( come 2033 ...28 years from now ) and he ain't payed up yet cuz my damn hair is gettin grayer by the minute! His son said he was gonna prepare a place for me cuz his dad had lots of mansions. I'll bet he sold the frickin thing!!!

Gumby

Need some scriptures ...

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