In the NT, especially in Paul, there is the distinctive metaphor of adopted sonship which draws on OT concepts of Israel as Yahweh's chosen people (cf. Exodus 4:22; Deuteronomy 32:18), and particularly the royal ideology of anointed kings as adopted sons of Yahweh (cf. 2 Samuel 7:14; Psalm 2:7). Early Christian christology interpreted Jesus Christ in this light (cf. Hebrews 1:2, 5 = Psalm 2:7), and this was extended to Christians who as joint heirs are promised the rights and privileges that "sons" are due (Romans 8:15, 23, 9:4; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5-7). This is a different sense of sonship that derives merely from having God as your source of life (cf. Acts 17:28).
Need some scriptures ...
by Wild_Thing 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
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A Paduan
God is spirit - a living spirit - his children are spirit - a devil may also generate a spirit ("you are of your father the devil").
Why do jw debates always focus on the flesh ?
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Narkissos
Early Christian christology interpreted Jesus Christ in this light (cf. Hebrews 1:2, 5 = Psalm 2:7), and this was extended to Christians who as joint heirs are promised the rights and privileges that "sons" are due (Romans 8:15, 23, 9:4; Galatians 4:5; Ephesians 1:5-7).
I would doubt that the (limited) use of huiothesia ("adoption") in Paul is an extension of an adoptianist Christology, because Paul's christology is not adoptianist (God sent his Son, Gal. 4:4).
Btw, the language of adoption is certainly more consistent in Romans than in Galatians, where "adoption" seems only to reveal the heirs' original status which was previously hidden (in a Gnostic way):
My point is this: heirs, as long as they are minors, are no better than slaves, though they are the owners of all the property; but they remain under guardians and trustees until the date set by the father. So with us; while we were minors, we were enslaved to the elemental spirits of the world. But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law...
when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me...
All in all, I guess Pauline adoptionist soteriology (describing Christians as "adopted children of God") is more of an author's construction (perhaps especially suited to the Roman audience), a second-degree legal metaphor which could not really compete, in terms of popularity, with the pervasive and overwhelming use of the first-degree metaphor of biological sonship in Hellenistic Christianity (as is obvious in John, but also Ephesians, James or 1 Peter). Now whether there is any connection with the Judeo-Christian adoptianist christology is certainly an interesting question (but I wouldn't take that connection for granted). -
Deputy Dog
Wild Thing
I don't know how much clearer it can be said
John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.D Dog
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JW Ben
The texts mentioned above are all good.
There are two ways of looking ot the term "Gods children" and the person giving the original responce needs to be ask in what sense were they refering as to be "children of God"
1 The fleshly mankind, that is all of us are Gods children by birth right, being offspring of Adam and Eve. There were texts to illustrate that above.
Because of Adams sin and Satan trying to take control, God aranged for a secondary "family". Those that want to do what is right by him and all mankind. So the ransom of Jesus was presented for our benefit.
2 That leads us to the second meaning of "Gods children" and that is those that have taken advantage of the ransom sacrifice and are now "spiritual children"
All mankind have the opertunity to become "spiritual children" or just stay physocal children. That choice is ours and ours alone to make
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FDS
Why even debate it with her? The bible called certain "jews" sons of their father the Devil, so in a strict biblical sense there ARE humans who the bible does not consider God's children. Even born again Christians believe this very thing. Now there are some sects that teach that God is love and he is the father of all but many others do not teach this. Calvinists do not believe this and they are certainly "orthodox". As to JWs, the ONLY ONES that are God's children are the ANONITED. The other sheep are not SONS.
If this lady is a JW then you will not get anywhere because it really does not matter what some bible text says if it does not reflect current Watchtower teachings. Destroy the authority FIRST and then a person might listen to reason...
FDS
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Alwayshere
Is she saying "If you don't do what God says, he'll disown you?"
Hi Wild Thing, I am not a JW, got out of that cult about 2 years ago.I do believe either Satan is your Father or God is your Father. The reason i feel this way is because of what Jesus said at John 8:44 to the Scribes and Pharisees, he told them the Devil was their Father. So according to Jesus all humans are NOT considered "God's children". John 8:42 Jesus said "If God were your Father,you would love me." So we have a choice, either love Jesus or the Devil is our Father.
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Narkissos
JW Ben
Because of Adams sin and Satan trying to take control, God aranged for a secondary "family". Those that want to do what is right by him and all mankind. So the ransom of Jesus was presented for our benefit.
2 That leads us to the second meaning of "Gods children" and that is those that have taken advantage of the ransom sacrifice and are now "spiritual children"
Please note that, in the texts I listed above, none mentions either "ransom" or "sacrifice".
While there is a connection with Christ in both John and Paul (with Christ's death and resurrection only in Paul), there is none in Matthew: only a certain behaviour, or attitude, is what makes one a "child of God".
Cf. Wisdom of Solomon 2:
"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,
because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;
he reproaches us for sins against the law,
and accuses us of sins against our training.
He professes to have knowledge of God,
and calls himself a child of the Lord.
He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
the very sight of him is a burden to us,
because his manner of life is unlike that of others,
and his ways are strange.
We are considered by him as something base,
and he avoids our ways as unclean;
he calls the last end of the righteous happy,
and boasts that God is his father.
Let us see if his words are true,
and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
for if the righteous man is God's child, he will help him,
and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
Let us test him with insult and torture,
so that we may find out how gentle he is,
and make trial of his forbearance.
Let us condemn him to a shameful death,
for, according to what he says, he will be protected." -
hmike
In the Bible, there is sonship via the biological connection, there is sonship by adoption, and there is also sonship based on someone sharing attitudes, personality, or interests with an older person (e.g., Paul refers to Timothy as his ?true son in the faith?). In our culture, we say, ?Like father, like son,? or ?The apple doesn?t fall too far from the tree? to indicate that the son shares attitudes, interests, or behaviors with his natural father.
The Bible teaches not only that we are all descended from the original humans God created, but also that everyone owes their existence to God, so in that sense, God is the father of all people. Then, there is also sonship by adoption into His kingdom, but embracing God?s attitudes as our own is part of this status, and this is the sonship that is most important.
On the subject of it being ?judgmental? for God not to automatically include everyone into his family, I don?t see how. If someone or some organization offers us a chance to join if we meet certain criteria and we refuse, how is that discriminatory? We don?t like the conditions? So we don?t join, but how can we complain? It?s our choice. God will honor our choice, either to be with him or apart from him.
(By the way, this ?Fatherhood of all people? concept is partly why I don?t believe in annihilation of the wicked at the end of time. God will not destroy the spirits he created because of the link with Himself, sharing an element of His nature, but the corrupted/wicked cannot be allowed to co-exist with the righteous, so there is a resurrection of both the righteous and wicked, they are both given remade, indestructible bodies, and assigned to their respective destinies, either with God or apart from Him. This is my opinion, anyway.)
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hmike
Narkissos,
I like that quote from Wisdom of Solomon. I know there is some dispute as to its origin, but if it really dates back to Solomon, or at least was known by the early 1st C. AD, that passage must have been in the minds of those who watched Jesus being crucified.
"He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God." (Mt. 27:43)