The Trinity!

by ((Omega)) 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ((Omega))
    ((Omega))

    Lets try this again shall we:

    BTW, How do I receive notification of replies, because my inbox was blank, I had to manually check to see if someone responded.

    I forgot to post my refutation to Ianones, who supports the false theology of modalism:

    John 6:38 - For{hoti}I came down{katabaino}from{ek}heaven{ouranos},not{ou}to{h ina} do{poieo} mine own{emos}will{thelema},but{alla}the will{thelema}of him that sent{pempo}me{me}.

    Two separate wills!

    John 8:17 - {kai}It is{grapho also{de}written{grapho}in{en} your{humeteros}law{nomos}, that{hoti}the testimony{marturia}of two{duo}men{anthropos}is{esti}true{alethes}.

    Two testomines, Jesus said that the tesimony of 2 persons were True, if Jesus was the Father then His testimony would be false!

    John 5:31 - If{ean}I{ego}bear witness{martureo}of{peri}myself{emautou}, my{mou}witness{marturia}is{esti}not{ou}true{alethe s}.

    Once again, if Jesus was the Father in another mode, then He would still be bearing witness of HIMSELF!

    John 17:24 - Father{pater}, I will{thelo}that{hina}they also{kakeinos},whom{hos}thou hast given{didomi}me{moi},be{o}with{meta}me{emou}where{ hopou} I{ego}am{eimi};that{hina}they may behold{theoreo}my{emos}glory{doxa}, which{hos}thou hast given{didomi}me{moi}:for{hoti}thou lovedst{agapao}me{me}before{pro}the foundation{katabole}of the world{kosmos}.

    If Jesus became the Son at the incarnation and had pre-existed as the Father before the incarnation, then it would not be possible for the Son to have shared the Love and Glory with the Father BEFORE the "Foundation of the World!"

    You can provide a trillion links, Unless you can DISPROVE what I have to say, those links are useless. try again!

  • ((Omega))
    ((Omega))

    Jesus stating that HE is the "IAM" does not disprove my theology. It only proves the Deity of Christ, which I do not deny. The problem here is that NOBODY has yet to refute what I have posted in regards to Christ being distinct from the Father.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    I can not prove in a scientific sense that God exists - so how can I prove what you have asked me - I am trying to show you that the questions you have raised have been discussed on this board ad nauseam and also by many scholars. Jesus also said he an hsi follwoers were one so they are also part of the trinity.

    I Swear by almighty God and I will bet you 1000 bucks these topics will resurface on this forum and others time and time again. My point is that Jesus is NOT God - I can not prove it - I can not prove the bible - so I will post no more to this thread

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    Omega, i never said i disproved anything nor was i trying to prove anything. I was indentifying the basic common Christologies.

    If you want to hear my reasons for being Sabellianist (Modalist), here we go

  • ((Omega))
    ((Omega))
    I can not prove in a scientific sense that God exists - so how can I prove what you have asked me - I am trying to show you that the questions you have raised have been discussed on this board ad nauseam and also by many scholars. Jesus also said he an hsi follwoers were one so they are also part of the trinity.

    I Swear by almighty God and I will bet you 1000 bucks these topics will resurface on this forum and others time and time again. My point is that Jesus is NOT God - I can not prove it - I can not prove the bible - so I will post no more to this thread.

    What you fail to realize is that your only deceiving yourself, you cannot prove that Jesus is God and yet that I HAVE PROVED that Jesus is CLEARLY GOD. The Scriptures cleearly teach it, there is no way around it, unless one purposely does not want to see it. Furthermore you should not swear by almighty God neither should you swear at all and the bible teaches us this, this demonstrates your lack of scriptural understanding. Jesus saying that His followers being one as Him does not make us part of a trinity, this does not make us God, God is UNCREATED, He is describing use being one in Unity as He and His Father is One in Unity, this does not make us God, God is Uncreated, we are! I have researched the theology of God for as long as I can remember, and have seen all viewpoints by countless persons and numerous scholars, the fact is that almost 99% of all scholars agree that God is Triune in nature, the Bible teaches us to study ourselves approved by God, as these scholars had and I have. If 99% of these scholars are INCORRECT, then they obviously wasted their time and the scriptures were UNCLEAR in describing the theology of God, unreasonable if you ask me. Logic states the it is illogical to perceive One God as existing as three Eternal Persons. To state that it is an Impossibility, is illogical in itself, why? Because a finite being such as man is trying to comprehend the infinite and vast complexity of the Godhead whose composition transcend that of a finite being, now that is illogical in itself. Since this is getting nowhere, I leave this forum and I pray for each and every person here that their understanding be broadened and that their hearts be willing to be opened to the Truth, submit the truth and the truth will be submitted to you. Take Care and God Bless!

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    If Jesus Was the Father, Why Would He
    Pray to the Father?

    Answer:

    Concerning your first question, you said: "Starting from the Oneness assertion that Jesus is the Father's hypostasis incarnate, and If we follow the method of Chalcedonian Christology (that is, if I'm not confounding its terminology here), then in Jesus there is also union of the divine and human hypostasis in a way that makes Christ a fully integrated and fully functioning person. Therefore, the distinction between Jesus and the Father is the union, which the Father lacks." I agree. Now, if Jesus "possesses" the deity of the Father, we still do not have any problem with Jesus praying to the Father because Jesus also has a genuine human nature which is distinct, but not separate from His divine nature. If Jesus was not a human being, and thus was only the Father, He obviously would have no need of prayer. The prayers of Christ arise from the genuineness of His human nature, not His divine nature. This is not to say that "Jesus only prayed as a man" or that "Jesus only prayed in His human nature," but it is to say that Jesus only had need of prayer because of His human nature. Apart from the incarnation, there would be no need of praying, for God does not need to pray. Only God, limited by the assumption of a genuine human existence, needs to pray. We do not understand this as meaning that the divine nature of Christ prayed to the Father, because then we have God praying to Himself. This is not the portrayal of Scripture, and would make no sense.

    This may sound Nestorian, but there are certain things which can be said of one nature which cannot be said of the other. The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that what can be said of one nature can be said of the other. It means that whatever can be said of one nature can be spoken of as applying to the whole of Christ?s person. For example, we wouldn?t say that the divine nature of Christ died on the cross. God did not die, but the humanity which God assumed died. If this sounds Nestorian, then Trinitarians and Oneness alike are Nestorians, for all confess this to be true. Likewise, the Scripture says that God cannot be tempted, yet Jesus was tempted. If we apply the communicatio idiomatum to mean that whatever can be said of one nature can be said of the other, then whether we believe Jesus? divine nature to be the Father?s or "God the Son?s," we have God being tempted. What we say is that Jesus, the Son of God, was tempted. How exactly this could be without splitting up the union of the two natures, I cannot adequately explain, but I believe we must conclude that it was because of Jesus? humanity, and not His deity, that Jesus prayed. We do not have His divine nature praying to the Father, which would be the same divine person, but we have a human being, who does not exercise the prerogatives of deity, but is willingly-limited to the prerogatives shared by all of humanity, relying on the Spirit of God for His every word and miracle, and thus praying to the Source of His human strength. In such a capacity Jesus could pray to the Father. It was only in His humanity that He could be subordinate to the Father, and thus could pray, or have need of prayer. I cannot explain it. Chalcedon cannot explain it. This is where our understanding breaks down. Chalcedon could not pinpoint the truth, it could only draw a box around it by saying what cannot be true, and let the truth lie somewhere inside the box. I am doing just that. I am asserting what is true, what cannot be true, and leaving the rest to the box of mystery.

    Concerning your second question, I do not see a problem with saying that God was in Jesus, because Jesus said so Himself on numerous occasions (John 10:38; 14:10-11; 17:21). Truly the Father was in Jesus. The Scripture even says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" (II Corinthians 5:19). The problem I see with the statement is not with the statement itself, but with the common misunderstanding of the statement. When taken too literally, to the exclusion of other pertinent verses, it can produce a Nestorian understanding of Christ where someone sees the deity in Christ as only occupying "space" in the man Jesus, but no essential unity between Jesus? humanity and deity. The Scripture balances statements such as these with the teaching that the logos actually became flesh.

    When the Scripture speaks of the God the Father as being in Christ, it is not attempting to explain any hypostatic union between Christ?s two natures. The Bible typically does not explain Christ in terms like these?terms and concepts which were fought over at Chalcedon. The Bible emphasizes Christ?s work more so than it does His person, especially the metaphysical realities of His person. This does not make a Chalcedonian Christology anti-Biblical or irrelevant. It is necessary that we understand the incarnation in such terms so that we can maintain the Biblical teaching on Christ?s work. It is logically necessary because one can only do what they are. Ability flows from identity. Someone cannot fix a car unless they are a mechanic. Someone cannot fly a plane unless they are a pilot. If Christ was not fully God and fully man, He could not do what He did to save us. The church fathers understood this, and that is why they attacked the aberrant views of Christ?s Person. The caution against the statement that "God is in Christ" is not a Biblical one, but a Chalcedonian caution, guarding the Biblical statement against a wrong interpretation. It is not a matter of denying the Biblical statements, but a matter of guarding them against misunderstanding by treating them as the totality of the truth, to the exclusion of other verses, and logical necessities that the Biblical concept of an incarnation of God produces.

    http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/howjesusprayiffather.htm

  • JW Ben
    JW Ben

    Ah my favourit subject

    I would like to see a debate between a JW view of the trinity (me) and one other person who belives in the trinity. i am confident beyond all doubt that I will prove to someonr not knowing which way to go that there is no trinity.

    Any one willing to take me on on a proper structure debate on this??.

    BTW to the person that said that the NWT teaches more then 1 god and points to John 1:1, they do not know that verse well. BTW the NWT rendering of John 1:1 is gramatically correct.

    Hey there you go a first topic in the matter.

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    JW ben, why dont you take a look at your elder's, Kingdom Interlinear Translation, which contradicts the NWT rendering of John 1:2

  • willy_think
    willy_think
    Two testomines, Jesus said that the tesimony of 2 persons were True, if Jesus was the Father then His testimony would be false!

    All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    no one knows the father but Jesus, yet Jesus gives testmony to the father. Must this testomony then be false in nature?

    Is jesus is a good God?

    Is it ok if Jesus is my favorite God?

    who is your favorite God?

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    If one concentrates on Mark and to some extent Matthew and Luke then one can make a good argument for an adoptionist Christology (subordinationism too). If one concentrates on the Johannine writings and some of Paul's then one can strongly argue for the full deity of Christ. There were different views of who Christ was by different communities of christians. The trinity was a decent attempt of the fourth century church to resolve this, but entirely ignored some other views like those of some docetic gnostics. People reading the different works can still perceive bits of those different views even though there were attempts to make the works "orthodox". I say the differences make for interesting discussion.

    As it was in the beginning (apparently), is now, and (maybe) ever shall be.

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