by Generic Man 300 Replies latest jw experiences
Scholar and schitzims may be related.--Toreador.
Please don't try to put me in the same boat with that fool. "Scholar" my ass! That guy and the one who runs the e-watchman site shouldn't even be claiming JW status. They're both as nutty as a fruitcake. If either one of them were in fact true examples of what the WTS is all about, then I would have nothing at all to do with the WTS myself.
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I can't believe this thread is still active. Why do you people even bother?........
I can't believe this thread is still active. Why do you people even bother?........
But yet here you are! Why did you "bother" to enter the thread again? Curiosity get the best of you? LOL
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OldSoul said that there was no deceit in what Ehud did. Reckon Eglon would agree with that?
Will OldSoul be back to defend what he's said? I rather doubt it!
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Schizm: There indeed was deceit, even according to your perception of the matter. Do you actually think that Eglon believed that Ehud had THAT SORT of message from God? Certainly, if Eglon hadn't been fooled he would never have dismissed his guards in the first place.
Well, when it comes to not addressing issues raised, I bow to your infinite experience. You must be correct. What Eglon believed about the nature of the message is immaterial. There was no lie involved in this account.
Ehud did not say what sort of message it was. Eglon assumed, however, that the secret was one he would not want his guards to hear. Eglon was a much despised King and any secret word from a foreign man who had already been checked for weapons would have piqued his interest.
I grant that this was a deception, albeit only one of omission of information while speaking to a tyrannical despot who had demanded yearly tribute for 18 years. If your fantastical reason for affiliating is correct, will you grant that the communication to date from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society regarding its NGO Affiliation is an ongoing commission of deception by actively delivering false information to people who have been financially supporting the organization for decades? That is, if your fantasy is correct. At least my reasoning paints them as bumbling inepts. You paint them as intentional deceivers for the Lord.
I thought it was understood that I sought a precedential example of active commission of deception, not passive ommission of information that allowed an enemy of God to assume an untruth. By the by, is Ehud your best example? Pitiable.
OldSoul
Schizm: Will OldSoul be back to defend what he's said? I rather doubt it!
Poor Schizm! You're just having awful luck with your suspicions turning out to be unfounded, aren't you? As it happens, while you posted your last two replies, I was crafting the above. You'll note, I more directly addressed your claim of deception on the part of Ehud.
I don't know how much support for your view you will garner since the Bible account makes perfectly clear that Ehud omitted information, which the WTS says is not even a lie, and allowed Eglon to assume what the content of the message was, whereas you portray the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as propagandizing misrepresenters of truth.
Main Entry: 4 lie
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lige, lie, from Old English lyge; akin to Old High German lugI, Old English lEogan to lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker 2 : something that misleads or deceives 3 : a charge of lying
Enjoy!
What Eglon believed about the nature of the message is immaterial. There was no lie involved in this account.
You're quite mistaken! What Eglon himself believed was the very thing that made Ehud's mission successful. Were it not for Eglon's gullibility then Ehud would've failed. Ehud's intent was to have Eglon believe that there was an actual message from God for him. Eglon fell for it, the dumb bastard, and died as a result.
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Continued:
I grant that this was a deception, albeit only one of omission of information while speaking to a tyrannical despot who had demanded yearly tribute for 18 years. If your fantastical reason for affiliating is correct, will you grant that the communication to date from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society regarding its NGO Affiliation is an ongoing commission of deception by actively delivering false information to people who have been financially supporting the organization for decades? That is, if your fantasy is correct. At least my reasoning paints them as bumbling inepts. You paint them as intentional deceivers for the Lord.
Nice to hear you admit that. Now was that really all that hard to do? LOL
Yes, I'll "grant" that the WTS is deliberately hiding the truth from the rank and file. I've already explained why it's necessary for the WTS to do that.
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Schizm: Yes, I'll "grant" that the WTS is deliberately hiding the truth from the rank and file. I've already explained why it's necessary for the WTS to do that.
Your explanation has everything except precedent and proof. It is a lying accusation of active deceit on the part of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I think it is odd that you defend them vigorously against honest and provable accusations of deception in other cases, but in this case you defend their "right" to deceive those who rely on them for truth.
Why don't you write a complimentary letter commending what you assume to have happened and see what response you get? Call it a "show of faith".
Please post the reply for us to see.
Schizm: You're quite mistaken! What Eglon himself believed was the very thing that made Ehud's mission successful. Were it not for Eglon's gullibility then Ehud would've failed. Ehud's intent was to have Eglon believe that there was an actual message from God for him. Eglon fell for it, the dumb bastard, and died as a result.
Hmm. Your Bible reads differently from mine.
Judges 3:18-24
18 And it came about that when he had finished presenting the tribute, he at once sent the people away, the bearers of the tribute. 19 And he himself turned back at the quarries that were at Gil´gal, and he proceeded to say: "I have a secret word for you, O king." So he said: "Keep silence!" With that all those who were standing by him went on out from him. 20 And E´hud came to him as he was sitting in his cool roof chamber that he had to himself. And E´hud went on to say: ?A word of God I have for you.? At that he rose up from his throne. 21 Then E´hud thrust in his left hand and took the sword off his right thigh and plunged it into his belly. 22 And the handle kept going in also after the blade so that the fat closed in over the blade, for he did not draw the sword out of his belly, and the fecal matter began to come out. 23 And E´hud proceeded to go out through the air hole, but he closed the doors of the roof chamber behind him and locked them. 24 And he himself went out.
Now, as I read I find that it was this secret matter that Ehud said he had for the king, then the King sent the men out. That happened before Ehud mentioned God. Prior to jumping down my throat for changing "word" to "matter" you might want to examine the original Hebrew word:
H1697 דּבר dâbâr daw-bawr'
From H1696; a word; by implication a matter (as spoken of) of thing; adverbially a cause: - act, advice, affair, answer, X any such (thing), + because of, book, business, care, case, cause, certain rate, + chronicles, commandment, X commune (-ication), + concern [-ing], + confer, counsel, + dearth, decree, deed, X disease, due, duty, effect, + eloquent, errand, [evil favoured-] ness, + glory, + harm, hurt, + iniquity, + judgment, language, + lying, manner, matter, message, [no] thing, oracle, X ought, X parts, + pertaining, + please, portion, + power, promise, provision, purpose, question, rate, reason, report, request, X (as hast) said, sake, saying, sentence, + sign, + so, some [uncleanness], somewhat to say, + song, speech, X spoken, talk, task, + that, X there done, thing (concerning), thought, + thus, tidings, what [-soever], + wherewith, which, word, work.
Sorry, sport. No active deceit. The word can mean "errand" or "task", the same word is used in both places. Omitting information on the nature of the errand is not active deceit. You lose. But thank you for admitting the active campaign of deceiving the rank and file Jehovah's Witness. It is also helpful to know that it does not surprise you. I am sure it would surprise anyone just starting to investigate this organization that a long-timer like you is not surprised by active attempts to deceive the rank and file.
OldSoul
