What Happened to the Body? (page 2)

Robert K Stock

hmike:

Since the Bible is a book of fairy tales there were no witnesses to Jesus supposed resurrection.

Jesus body stayed in what ever tomb he was placed.

We cannot accept at face value a single word written in the Bible.

Narkissos

Leolaia,

I agree that the detail of Paul's argument is far from consistent.

Moreover, the "Last/Second Adam" and "man from heaven" mythemes which are enrolled into the resurrection discussion in 1 Corinthians 15 actually belong to a much broader vision of redemption and will be re-used in Romans without any reference to Jesus' resurrection.

Mary

Leolaia said: the dead when they are raised will, like Christ, have a soma pneumatikos instead of the fleshly soma psukhikos (v. 44). This falls very naturally in line with the intertestamental concept of the resurrection being a corporeal affair (in the sense of putting on "garments", cf. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54), tho the kinds of bodies the righteous would have will be like those of the angels. Ghosts and demons, on the other hand, don't have bodies, at least from the point of view of Ignatius and the author of Luke

This is very interesting, but I have a question: are the raised dead in Christ a different group than the ghosts you mention? Aren't ghosts the spirits of the dead? Or are they something else?

Leolaia

This is very interesting, but I have a question: are the raised dead in Christ a different group than the ghosts you mention? Aren't ghosts the spirits of the dead? Or are they something else?

Yes, the dead raised in Christ have bodies; they are "clothed", not "naked" (2 Corinthians 5:2-8). The bodies are spiritual tho (that is, like the bodies of angels), not fleshly (1 Corinthians 15). Here is a good extracanonical example of the resurrection being described in terms of receiving spiritual clothing: "And I saw [in seventh heaven] all the righteous from the time of Adam onwards. And there is saw the holy Abel and all the righteous. And there I saw Enoch and all who were with him, stripped of their robes of flesh; and I saw them in their robes of above, and they were like the angels who stand there in great glory" (Ascension of Isaiah 9:7-9). Phantoms and demons, on the other hand, are as Ignatius puts it asomatos "bodiless". The docetic concept of Christ's raising, as promoted by Cerinthus, similarly claimed that at Jesus' baptism, the heavenly power called the Son entered into Jesus' body and took Jesus as his earthly vessel, and dwelt in him until the crucifixion when Christ fled Jesus' body and subsequently ascended to heaven to the Father. From this docetic point of view, the raised Christ no longer had a body.

Kenneson

It seems to me that in the resurrection there will be some continuity of the body, albeit changed. See Phi. 3:19-20 and 1 Cor. 15.51-2.

IP_SEC

So God caused Jesus? body to disappear, but not corrupt, meaning that it was dissolved, disintegrated back into the elements from which all human bodies are made.?John 20:1-13

I think I read somewhere he used anti matter but I'm not sure :P

Midget-Sasquatch

What if he wasn't resurrected? .... Well, many of those crucified as criminals by the Romans would be thrown into common graves (usually lime ones which did a quick job of decomposing the flesh). There'd be no way to easily point to a body to refute the claims. I don't find that a very inspiring ending to a life that meant alot to so many - but its one possible (and also a likely) scenario.

Much more interesting to think about what happened to the body with a resurrection:

The Gospel of Peter suggests a docetic view in one part of it:

[19] And the Lord screamed out, saying: 'My power, O power, you have forsaken me.' And having said this, he was taken up.

But then it describes the resurrection of Jesus like this:

[36] and they saw that the heavens were opened and that two males who had much radiance had come down from there and come near the sepulcher. [37] But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered. [38] And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding). [39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from they sepulcher, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them, [40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.

Maybe the christians who liked this gospel were no taller than me....I can go for that sorta resurrection.

Satanus

Further to rks' comment, the gospels were written at least 30 yrs after the purported resurrection. So, many yrs after, what w paul building his new religion, stories could be tailored to fit and fill it in. Remember that the gospels were written after paul's writings.

S

hmike

OK, so accepting that?

I Corinthians is generally dated around 50-55 AD by all the scholarship I?ve seen. Also, as far as I?ve found, critical scholars do credit this letter intact to Paul (maybe someone can cite disagreements with this). In Chapter 15, it states:

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;

7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;

8 and last of all, as it were to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.

(NASB)

If it wasn't true, wouldn't it be a risk to make this claim when there are so many people living with whom this story could be checked?

Robert K Stock

No it is not risky at all to say that in the first century 500 people saw something they did not. Who was going to go and check? It was all part of the story telling and people wanted to hear a story.

At Fatima, Portugal in 1917 thousands claimed that they saw something when they did not.

What Happened to the Body?

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