What Happened to the Body?

by hmike 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Heymike

    As far as bs propagating through the general population, there was probably a lot more among the first century jews than there is in the general population now. The part that you underlined is not corraborated in any of the secular histories of the time. There were other gospels, other prophetic writings, other mythic stories, other godmen all claiming nonfiction status. Yet it was not the people who were the supposed contemporaries of these claimed events who decided what was to become the bible canon. This was done centuries later, in a long drawn out process by the catholic church.

    S

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    hmike,

    You might wish to read the article "Apocryphal Apparitions: 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 as a Post-Pauline Interpolation" by Robert M. Price on http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/ (click on "Articles you can read now" on the first page).

    Even if you don't agree with its conclusions as far as literary criticism is concerned, you might consider the fact that broadly referring to a number (not names) of eyewitnesses which theoretically could be called in but practically cannot is a quite powerful and easy rhetorical device, the risk of which is minimal. If written in a later generation the risk is null; in any case the rhetoric still works centuries later.

    As a side note, the "witnesses" in 1 Corinthians 15 actually testify to apparitions, not resurrection -- not to mention bodily resurrection.

  • Tyre
    Tyre

    The questions is not just only the body of Christ, but also our human Body (Human) in the ressurection.

    According to these verses below

    Phi 3:21

    who shall change our body of humiliation so that it may be fashioned like His glorious body, according to the working of His power, even to subdue all things to Himself.

    1Jo 3:2

    Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

    Every JW believe that they will resurected as Physical Body, then they believe that Jesus ressurected as Spirit body. So that would be contradicted with those verses above, while , right? any comments, please?

  • mnb77
    mnb77

    the verses are not the same but this piece is concerning the body thing:

    Concerning the body thing, from the same instance with Luke 24:36-39 ? myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.?(NWT)

  • mnb77
    mnb77

    please ignore these two identical posting, the computer is not letting me put the whole piece on this I've written. sorry

    Concerning the body thing, from the same instance with Luke 24:36-39 ? myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.?(NWT)

  • Mastodon
    Mastodon

    DaVinci stole it and took it to France...

  • hmike
    hmike

    Robert K. Stock:

    Looks like you would reject the historical existence of Jesus altogether, at least as a single individual who went around teaching among the Jews about the way to God. That is an extreme position, because most critics of the NT, even rabbis, would accept that a mortal man called Jesus did live in Israel about that time. This brings up the question of what is considered reliable historical documentation. Can we believe that Alexander the Great was a real person? Or Socretes? Or the Pharoahs or ancient Chinese rulers?

    Midget-Sasquatch:

    The lime graves theory is new to me. I'll have to check further into Roman burial customs. Still, it presumes that nobody would have taken possession of the body immediately after the crucifixion. Are you saying that maybe later, when someone went to take possession of the body, it couldn't be found because it had decayed beyond recognition, and so the disciples claimed, "He must have raised from the dead?"

    Narkissos:

    I've read most of the reference by Mr. Price, including the part where he discusses Paul's reference to the 500 witnesses. It looks to me that he is saying that part was added later, after the Gospels were written because surely, it would have been mentioned. OK, on the surface, I can see the sense in that. But, actually, to me, more than anything, this argues FOR single authorship of each of the Gospel accounts (i.e., four different authors, who may have used outside sources or scribes to write it down) and AGAINST editing and modification later in the church. Otherwise, wouldn't someone have altered the Gospel accounts to include Paul's account? It's entirely possible to me that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John simply did not know of this appearance to the 500 others when they (or the "real" authors) wrote down their accounts. Paul could have found out about this from someone else, or it could have been revealed to him directly by the glorified Jesus or an angel.

    This is a bit off-topic now, but I'd like to give my observation of higher criticism. Since there are differences in the accounts, critics say, "These can't be true or inspired because there are contradictions." But if all the accounts matched, people would say, "These aren't reliable; they must have been altered to make them the same." It reminds me of what Jesus said about those who rejected both John the Baptist and him. There's just no pleasing some people.

    What kind of documentary evidence would be acceptable?

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch
    Still, it presumes that nobody would have taken possession of the body immediately after the crucifixion. Are you saying that maybe later, when someone went to take possession of the body, it couldn't be found because it had decayed beyond recognition, and so the disciples claimed, "He must have raised from the dead?"

    Well it is all just speculating on plausibilities. But assuming the crucifixion really did happen to this man Jesus, and the gospels give an accurate portrayal of his socioeconomic status , its not too much of a stretch to presume that his fellow low class jews, or even his family had no real influence to get permission from the Romans to take possession of the body right away. Kinda hard then to pick it out of a common grave without modern day DNA forensics. I don't want to make his followers out to be opportunists or cynical in that scenario. Its only one possibility. Again, if real, I like to think that someone did get possession of the body so that it was given a decent burial.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    hmike,

    To me it all boils down to the motto: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. All the more so when the issue is about taking a somewhat fantastic story as history.

    There is no doubt that the canonical Gospels didn't grow independently from one another -- and from non-canonical writings. Even if the first draft of Mark was the first of the kind, its later editions did include some feedback from the others. Yet none of the Gospels was ever meant to be read alongside others and compared to them. It was the Gospel for a given community. The inner communication of the worldwide (= Catholic) 2nd-century Church brought about an unexpected "synopsis" effect, which harmonies such as Tatian's Diatessaron tried to avoid. There is a lot of textual evidence of minor and not-so-minor emendations in subsequent transmission (usually through "censure by addition", in the ancient scribal way), but generally the differences between the four Gospels just could not be erased because each one of them was treasured in some Churches. The canon and extant diversity of the texts are actually a negotiated compromise between the weightiest actors in Church politics (of course leaving many others out of the compromise).

    MS,

    Cf. the essential narrative role of the influential Joseph of Arimathea, who was neither a parent nor a notorious disciple, in the Passion plot (Mark 15:43//).

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch
    Cf. the essential narrative role of the influential Joseph of Arimathea, who was neither a parent nor a notorious disciple, in the Passion plot (Mark 15:43//).

    Excellent point to include Narkissos. Just the needed status to do the job.

    HMike: The question there is was he purely a handy invention?

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