I NEED HELP (page 4)

Shawn

It was dirtclod.com that was not working.

bebu

Ahh yes, dirtclod.com! The WTS went after the person who put up the documents... it hasn't been online for a long while now.

bebu

I'm sorry to inform you that dirtclod.com is indeed off line for now. It seems that the almighty WT Society shut our friend dirtclod down because they did not like all of their 'dirt' splaterd all over the internet for the 'sheep' to read.

Maybe those on the board who know dirtclod could give Shawn a pm regarding this situation and thus help out our new friend.

NewLight2

NewLight2

Shawn,

Rather than being so concerned with WT doctrine and how to 'refute' it, I would recommend that you study up on the topic of 'cult mind-control'. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Steven Hassan has written two excellent books on the subject: Combatting Cult Mind Control and Releasing The Bonds.

JW's are re-programmed whenever they attend the KH or read their WT material. The biggest hurdle to overcome is that they equate Jehovah with the 'Organization' [The WT Society]. If one leaves the WT Society, then one has 'left Jehovah'. 'The Truth' is what the WTS says and all else is 'of Satan'. They even regard what is written in the WT Publications on a higher level then they do the Bible. However, very few, if any, would admit that this is the csse when asked. This is called 'doulble think'/'double speak'.

Another good book that will help you to understand the mind-set of the JW is, "The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses" by Heather and Gary Botting (C/R 1984, University of Toronto Press - ISBN 0-8020-2537-4[bound] or 0-8020-6545-7 [paperback]. But unfortunatly it is out of print. You might try getting the book through the 'inter-library loan' (ILL) system using your own local library.

NewLight2

Rod P

Shawn,

Try this one:

www.CaptivesOfaConcept.com

This is a book by the same title, written by Dr. Don Cameron who spent some 20 years as a JW.

The message I get from his publication is that a primary reason you cannot argue and debate with a JW and convince them of anything against their religion is precisely because they are all captivated by one concept, and that is that the Governing Body is Jehovah God's Sole Channel of Communication on the Earth. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's literature may have all kinds of changes in their doctrinal pronouncements (implying that their earlier teachings were wrong), and no matter how many unfulfilled or false prophecies you can point out to them (implying they are false prophets), and no matter how flawed their logic on scriptural interpretations (implying they do not properly understand the scriptures), etc., the J.W.'s will still continue to believe in that Organization as having "The Truth". For you to even begin to think you can influence or have an effect on the mind and heart of a believing JW, that person must begin to have doubts about the Governing Body's standing or relationship with God. Perhaps it is relevant to discuss the reputation of this "anonymous body", because there is where it has a lot of answering to do, both before God, the World, and the JW's themselves in terms of how they are being treated. IMO they have inflicted cruel and unusual punishment on the JW's individually by virture of their policies on disfellowshiping and shunning (which have wreaked so much havoc on so many families), their stand on blood transfusions (which have caused countless needless deaths), their dishonesty and cover-up on child abuse by JW Elders, and their hypocrisy in joining the worldly organization of the United Nations while preaching to the membership to keep themselves apart from the world, and to avoid even the appearance of evil. It is the behavior and policy of the Governing Body that indicts them in terms of their standing before God, and these are areas where I think a sincere, believing JW may begin to seriously ask questions about what kind of Organization they are really following and obeying. Once they get past all this, then they may become more open to discuss the Bible in and of itself, without such reliance on what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says that the Bible says such and such, putting their own spin on the scriptures.

Having said this, I don't really think you should be in the business of trying to convert anyone to anything, and neither should anyone else (including me). At the same time, I don't think it is a bad idea to get someone to question all of their assumptions, and get them out of their "comfortable pews". It happens to me all the time, and I consider that a good thing! It keeps one humble, and no-one knows everything.

Regards!

Rod P.

Shawn

I am researching not maybe ways to refute but more along the lines of having answers to questions she may have. I am not really trying t convert her. She believes she is a Christian. If she wants to be a Christian I want to help her and I believe that the way to help her is to show her she can read the Bible for herself for one thing. I am reading CoC right now. I am 50 pages into and am impressed with how empathetic he comes across. I am going to read a lot on cults and mind control since I have no practical experiance.

Shawn

I am thinking of writing a letter to my friend's family and our friends to show them what this orginization is about because none of them know. Even her mother is completely ignorant of what they do by her own admission. I am going to ask that they keep it to them selves and just try to get info and try to support her when she needs it. Do any of you think that is a good idea? I am ready to do it I just don't know if it may go wrong and what might happen if it does.

bebu

I kinda think you are jumping the gun. This is only day 2.

It's hard to read stuff and not just turn around and want to talk about it. I think you need to digest this more. You've only just begun!

But that's just my opinion.

bebu

Shawn

I fear that the window is closing on my chance. She went to meeting today for the first time since Memorial. Should I wait to have a support network in place for her? What if it is too late and she has no one to turn to? I want her to know that there are people outside the WT to help her.

AK - Jeff

Shawn -

I once took a course that detailed why we change our behaviour. The keynote was that we must first experience 'a significant emotional experience', whatever that may be.

It seems that that has happened to most who have left the organization - if not they seem to stay. Mostly it has little to do with being convinced to leave.

Once that is understood one can slowly chip away at the organization - but it is slow going. Wifey and I left 2 years back and not a single soul of our congregation has even bothered to ask why.

Read Cameron's book "Captives of a Concept" - it will get you to the basic understanding of the the mind control that is employed.

But don't set your sights too high - most saviours get disappointed when it comes to saving JW's ad lib.

Just My Opinion

Jeff

I NEED HELP

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