I was snubbed by a 'dub

by Dawn 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • orangefatcat
    orangefatcat

    Eduardo, take a chill pill. And call me in the morning. God Lord man what Dawn did was and is proffessional. That person needed to be put in her place and seeing how she started the conversation first leave. She went beyond the Good Morning thing, she added I can't associate with you. Well Dawm didn't ask to associate with her. So when Dawn responded she did so in a proffessional manner as far as I am concerned.

    This witness left herself open for a comment because she was the one who made an issue out of the matter. All see needed to do was say "Good Morning" and leave it at that. I can't figure it out why JW feel compelled to make a display of themselves openly when it isn't necessary. If she wanted to say something to Dawn she should have said it at an appropriate time. All she succeeded in doing was making herself look like a fool, while in fact she may have thought of herself as being better than Dawn. It was tantamount to, oh look at me I am going to get everlasting life I am a good super JW and your going to die at Armeggadom. Nanana!! Now tell me if I am wrong here or not. Because I feel I am right. JW are sometimes so self righteous and consider themselves better than others who have left the org. It is almost nauseating.

    Dawn you just one cool gal. And good for you as I can assure you, I would have done exactly the same thing. Bravo.

    Luv Orangefatcat.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    But simply because one chooses to break the normal ritual this does not make them rude. They have that freedom, we all do.

    I don't agree at all. I think rudeness is determined by your culture. In our culture, it IS rude not to acknowledge a greeting with a reciprocal one. She is certainly free to choose to be rude, but that doesn't make it not rude.

    The reaction of the other coworkers would seem to support that view.

    I totally agree with Quotes, beautiful anti-witness work, and you weren't even trying. Just being a human proves to be a great anti-witness. Ought to tell 'em something, but it won't of course.

    Dave

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Bravo, Dawn. You indeed took the high road. Based on youre example, I have resolved not to let any mumbling pass me by any more. Quotes, love your comment:

    As for the janitor, good work. Perhaps somewhere this Dub will related their "experience" in a meeting and the Elder will say "What a FINE WITNESS(tm) you (the Janitor) provided, showing your resolve to not associate with opposers and apostates"

    I, on the other hand, would like to say, "Dawn, what a FINE ANTI-WITNESS you provided, demonstrating both your level of professionalism and humanity, while revealing the high-control of Watchtowerism for all your coworkers to see. WELL DONE!".

    ~Quotes, of the "Kingdom Cleaning Services" class
  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Greetings!

    Of course, I knew it. Many here would pounce on me because of their own emotional attachment to this issue. But try for once to look at this situation objectively.

    rude
    adj 1: socially incorrect in behavior; "resentment flared at such
    an unmannered intrusion" [syn: ill-mannered, unmannered,
    unmannerly]
    2: (of persons) lacking in refinement or grace [syn: ill-bred,
    bounderish, lowbred, underbred, yokelish]
    3: lacking civility or good manners; "want nothing from you but
    to get away from your uncivil tongue"- Willa Cather [syn:
    uncivil] [ant: civil]

    Ok. By the definition #1, the janitor's conduct was "rude" in that her conduct/behaviour did not conform to normal (non-JW) social convention but does not meet this definition if it is judged according to the social custom of Jehovah's Witnesses. So whether it was RUDE by definition #1 depends on which society you are viewing it from. No-doubt since the co-workers were non-Jehovah's Witnesses they would agree with this view. However, if a group of Jehovah's Witnesses had been standing nearby observing they might consider that the "accepted socially correct" behaviour would be for the one who is disfellowshipped (or whatever Dawn is) to NOT say a greeting to one they know to be a JW in order not to place that person in an awkward position. Thus by their view what Dawn did would be rude and what the janitor did would not be rude.

    Additionally, I want to add that we teach our children (and others) these social rituals, whatever they are according to our custom. In some cultures, perhaps the older person should speak first to the younger. Or maybe a woman is expected to speak to a man before he has permission to speak to her. Whatever, these social customs and ritual vary from culture to culture. What we call "rude" is when one breaks with these customs. And labeling something as RUDE is only our weak way of trying to reinforce those social rituals and customs instead of rationally trying to provide an explanation as to WHY such social convention exists in the first place. (e.g. saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes is considered "appropriate" (i.e "polite") and to not say it is considered "Rude" but there is no rational reason to say it yet we don't want to admit that there is no rational reason, it is just "being polite" and that is the best we can do. Larry David makes a (greater) living by exploiting and exposing such nonsense in our society.)

    All I will say is that I personally enjoy being spontaneous and not being a slave to social conventions. If you call me on the telephone I might answer "bananas" instead of "hello." That's just fun. (Ok so that is not what is going on here, I just wanted to say that.)

    What IS going on in this situation is that this situation is NOT one that is normal according to most cultures where an exchange of "Hello - Hello" or "Good Morning - Good Morning" is what is expected and socially acceptable.

    Dawn knows that the janitor is a JW. She said so. She also knows that the JW is not to according to the misguided (false) teaching of the Society to even "say a greeting to her" (unless absolutely required to - and even then the employee could opt not to at the risk of losing their job).

    YET DESPITE THIS FOREKNOWLEDGE AND CONSIDERATION, she "tested" the situation by saying "Hello" to the JW janitor. (Inconsideration #1)

    then EVEN THOUGH she did get a response when the JW "mumbled" something (we can only assume that it was either "hello" back or "I am not supposed to associate/talk to you" - we don't know), Dawn not being satisfied with a response, LEANED IN CLOSE TO HER and said "excuse me," or "what did you say?" or "sorry, I didn't understand you?", whatever she said. THUS placing the JW Janitor in an even more uncomfortable postion. (Inconsideration #2)

    Now, I don't know what Dawn's position is in this company, nor do I know what the positions and social status is of the other friends of Dawn that were with her, but what is clear is that the JW lady is a janitor who is no doubt considered "lower" on the social status scale there at work. But considering this, is it also possible that the JW Janitor, on top of feeling uncomfortable due to her beliefs, is now meant to feel even more uncomfortable due to the DIFFERENCES IN SOCIAL STATUS. Think about it. I consider that alone to be both inconsideration number #3 and crossing over the line to actually BELITTLELING (sp?). I wonder if Dawn would have dared to lean over and say "excuse me" or "what did you mumble" if the JW had been the president of the company?

    Then having received a CLEAR REPLY and EXPLANATION as to why the JW did not respond according to social custom (but note she did respond correctly according to her JW social custom), and despite Dawn fully understanding that FOR A JW merely saying "hello" is considered "association", Dawn feels (for some sick reason?) to press even further, loudly stating for everyone to here..."I am not trying to have association with you ("you little Janitor?") I am just "being Professional" (implying, I AM CORRECT HERE and YOU ARE INCORRECT) thus no doubt making the JW feel even worse. (Inconsideration #4)

    (What is remarkable here is that Dawn really has no idea what is in her so-called "friend's" heart. Maybe the JW Janitor doesn't even support the disfellowshipping/shunning practice but complies with it for whatever reason. Perhaps the JW janitor feels guilty about having to ignore Dawn (her friend) and NOW on top of her own internal guilt and struggle or confusion, along comes Dawn who decides she is going to play a litle game and make (her friend?) feel even worse.)

    So then after this little episode, Dawn has a nice little laugh about it with her friends, all of whom are much higher ups than janitors in the company. (Inconsideration #5)

    And finally, Dawn has the brazen pride in he actions to come and boast upon JWD so that she can make this poor JW janitor look bad before the whole world. (Inconsideration #6)

    Now according to definitions #2 and #3 WHO OF THE TWO, Dawn or the JW Janitor, were/are lacking in "grace" and lacking in "good manners." (And even by #1 as an ill-mannered "intrusion".)

    The answer seems very obvious to me. Dawn's conduct is not only rude it is very unChristian (though I don't know if Dawn consider's herself Christian or cares.)

    -Eduardo

    PS: Having said all of the above and being both disfellowshipped myself and being shunned by my family and JW friends, I can emphathize and I know where Dawn and many of you are coming from.

    It is a long standing point of debate and a subject to discuss about whether one's own "voluntary compliance" with the JW's rules of not forcing confrontations or saying greetings to JWS is EITHER 1) supportive of an illegitimate and harmful practice OR 2) being considerate and showing genuine Christian love for the conscience of a person who is misguidely trying to do what they think is right.

    I grant you, there are good arguments on both sides.

    As for myself personally, I usually comply with the "rules" and do not impose my own beliefs/views or conscience of knowing that the disfellowshipping/shunning practice is both wrong and harmful upon and in substitution for a person that I know to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Though I feel I am in the right, I don't feel that it is my right to make the Jehovah's Witness hurt in their own conscience. (if they choose to speak to me then that is another matter of course.)

    PPS: Of course work cultures vary and what the employer requires varies. If you work at Wal-Mart or many other stores you are required to "Greet" customers, every customer, even if they were a JW and you were DF'd.

    As for "requiring" civility among employees, there is of course general courtesy and respect that is required in every work place and sometimes employees that violate these policies are justifably punished. However, I have yet to see a compnay that requires "association" or that even requires saying "hello" to every employee in the business. If that were the case that is the type of patriarchal Big Brother company that I would never want to work for. That type of conduct sounds like the armed forces where soldiers are required to salute their superiors.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist

    >> YET DESPITE THIS FOREKNOWLEDGE AND CONSIDERATION, she "tested"
    >> the situation by saying "Hello" to the JW
    >> janitor. (Inconsideration #1)

    As ridiculous as this sounds, you do have a point. In Star Trek, Vulcans are known as a race that does not like to be touched. Their greeting involves a hand gesture that does not involve physical contact. So when an uncultured boob of an alien tried to shake hands with a Vulcan, he was generally viewed as either ignorant or rude, even though the Vulcan was in HIS culture.

    Since JW's are required not to greet us, and we know it, is it truly inconsiderate to put these Vulcans in the position of having to say, "Please don't touch me?"

    On the one hand, we are free from Watchtower domination and we don't want to be forced to play by their rules anymore. But on the other hand the individual humans in the bOrg are still humans, does it do them or us any good to "test" them in this way? If it was customary to offer a bloody porkchop to anyone you met, would you still offer one to a person you knew was a Jew?

    There's no denying that it was a good anti-Witness to bystanders. But you've got me thinking now. I'm not sure where I stand on it.

    Dave

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Dave the larger issue here (getting away from Dawn's deal) is very interesting and very debatable.

    As I said there are GOOD arguments on both sides. I think people that feel like it is both Ok and in fact a Good Thing to challenge the wrong and harmful belief/practice of disfellowshipping feel justified in doing so.

    REally I could undestand it if as policy we all (who are DF'd) said I don't believe in this doctrine/practice, you have no control over me. and I am NOT going along with it. When I go to a meeting or assembly or convention I AM NOT GOING TO JUST SIT QUIETLY AND ACT LIKE I AM GUILTY OF SOMETHING, I am going to laugh and say hello and talk to you (fellow JWs). If you don't KNOW that I am disfellowshipped that is your problem, I don't support the practice anyway.

    That is a summary of one view.

    On the other hand, the side that I lean towards is that we have to let people come around for themselves. I know that if I were to speak to a JW and have a good old time, talking eating lunch with them on Friday and Saturday sessions of the Convention and then on Sunday an elder that knew me told the person I was DF'd that that person would (it is crazy I know) but it is a fact, that they would FEEL BAD, they might even feel guilty before God and feel like they had sinned or did whatever.

    So, knowing that, I feel like out of real Christian love, I should not put that person in that position.

    That is just my view and conscience.

    -Eduardo

  • bikerchic
    bikerchic

    LOL @ Dawn:

    One of my coworkers nailed it in a funny way - his comment about her actions............."Yea - I'm sure that's what Jesus would have done"

    I think we should have a bumper sticker made saying:

    Have you been snubbed by a dub today?

    But never mind me I'm just in a silly mood today. Carry on with your who was rude debate people.

    Kate

  • jaffacake
    jaffacake

    A good debate, I can see both sides and have been made to think some more.

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5

    ok tell me if this is rude.

    My parents have some old friends who happen to be jws. they moved about 4 hours away and sometimes would come to visit my parents when their district conventions were in my parents area.

    On one such occasion they brought up their grown son of about 30 (who is a cancer survivor but whom they treat like a child). this man stayed in my parents' house for a few days. When i came over with my children to visit he would not speak to me, would not even acknowledge me. Oh he spoke to my brother, but neither my brother nor am I are baptised jehovah's witnesses. I did not confront the jerk, even though he was staying my parents's house and was being totally rude and disrespectfully.

    By the way both of his parents spoke to me and carried on conversations with me and his father at one time was an elder.

    So, was that rude or what?

    Josie

  • EvilForce
    EvilForce

    I think she was being rude, but she is still slaving away for that Harlot organization. She cannot free her mind and that's a shame, but I consider it punishment enough.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit