Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-17-05 WT Study (page 3)

heathen

stilla --- The WTBTS always makes it look like the men are the only ones lusting and lack self control around women . Nothing new there . They talk about modest dress and all that but I've seen some women wearing revealing clothes where as they would give the low brow treatment to men that had hair bellow the ear lobe. I even think they baptize women just to look at them in swim suits . If we read the bible men were the only ones being baptized . They didn't have swim suits back then so people were naked no doubt . There is one exception tho with a woman named Lydia . I remember an article a year or so ago that the WTBTS condemned the use of the public bath houses by christians back in the first century saying that christians would not have used them .

willyloman

I even think they baptize women just to look at them in swim suits

That was true at first, but then they started wearing big, baggy t-shirts over them. This thinned out the baptism pool crowd considerably. Now it's mostly women and children.

Seriously, I second pistoff's motion; your three gripes are mine as well, and you articulated them brilliantly.

heathen

One husband whose wife is one of Jehovah's Witnesses admitted that he could never live up to their high standards. Still, he called himself "the happy husband of a charming wife" and warmly praised his wife and her fellow Witnesses in a letter to a newspaper. BALONY!
thanks blondie,

I wonder who this guy was or was this hear say from the wife ? The high standards I think are those associated with being a christian and not something the WTBTS imposes on people . He may as well say he can't be a christian and not just a dubby . Granted, to be a dubby requires more than being a christian . You have to will your mind to be controlled by them . I don't know many sane people that are willing to do that .

blondie

xjwms

Actually I have had many years of imagining how it could be done differently. Back in the days when the conductors weren?t so controlled, it could be interesting.

stilla,

I do not think I will be able to comment at tomorrows WTS without laughing - but I will try and let you all know jhow the study went.

It?s not as funny when you are a woman sitting out in the audience knowing that the men in the congregation think you are just below a baptized, 14-year old boy, and that your intelligence level drops once a month.

Min,

the wife would approach the elders to tell on the husband as being sweet and caring in public but a bastard at home. The elders would tell the wife that perhaps she was too demanding and then tell the husband to "be loving" toward his mate.

Right on the first part, but the elder would give the husband a sympathetic look when the wife wasn?t looking. ?too demanding? is another way of saying that women don?t matter.

Jgnat,

Actually, men have been able to get a divorce quite easily in many countries. But not women, after all how can your property divorce you. Even in the late 1800?s this was still true. Women have been able to vote on since 1920 in most countries.

Flash,

Good point about being equal. It reminds me of the separate but equal philosophy in the southern US. Men still come first in the WTS and women learn that they step back and submit. Here is how the WTS describes equality.

*** w99 8/1 p. 5 Inequality?Did God Intend It? ***

That God created humans to be equal does not mean that he intended for all of them to be equal in every respect. They could differ in talents, interests, and personality. They could also differ in station or in degree of authority. For example, man and woman are not equal in all respects, but God created the woman ?as a complement? of the man. (Genesis 2:18) Parents and children obviously differ in authority. Despite these differences, however, all?men, women, and children?were to enjoy as a God-given right equal opportunities to satisfy the basic requirements for happiness. They were all to enjoy equal dignity and standing before God.

*** w98 9/1 p. 15 Stay Close to the Theocracy ***

Besides, Christians know that men and women are equal in Jehovah?s eyes as far as salvation is concerned. (Galatians 3:28)

*** w86 9/1 pp. 15-16 A Woman?s Honorable Role ***

Laws concerning Sabbath benefits, festivals, Nazirite vows, and other provisions applied equally to men and women. ?Exodus 20:10; Numbers 6:2; Deuteronomy 12:18; 16:11-14.

Is that true? Did you know that a husband or father could cancel a woman?s Nazirite vow?

Jgnat

Or do they really mean that these children are an important source for future converts for the society?

Also, apparently, all non-JW men are irresponsible, waste money, smoke, drink, gamble, and use abusive language:

Yes, non-JW spouses are demonized and treated with disrespect, as flawed items to be tossed, corpses to be kissed.

Room 215,

Sisters hear stories of sisters who held out over abuse and their husbands became JWs; if they don?t, it?s as if they don?t trust in God, that they don?t love the abuser.

*** w82 6/1 p. 12 An Educated Tongue??To Encourage the Weary? ***

A 33-year-old mother with an unbelieving abusive husband became depressed. She stated: ?When I became overly anxious, tense or had fears, I would go to Jehovah right then and there, on hands and knees sometimes, weeping, begging him to help me overcome this. It was very important to be specific in the prayer. Many times I would get instant relief.?

*** w75 5/1 pp. 286-288 Questions from Readers ***

My husband sometimes beats me. Should I get a legal separation or divorce because of it?

For either husband or wife to abuse the other mate is obviously wrong; God?s Word condemns it. But the Bible also urges mates to remain together. Whether your home situation seems so extreme as to require a separation is something that you alone must decide.

Jehovah instituted marriage as a means of procreation and a source of happifying companionship. (Gen. 2:18-24) When the first couple rejected their Creator?s guidance and chose to go their own way, strife and unhappiness were introduced into their marriage. Foreseeing that resistance to headship by imperfect women and abuse of headship by imperfect men would occur in many marriages, God told the woman: ?Your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.? (Gen. 3:16) It is sad but true that this domination has often involved cruelty, violence.

Because of the frequency of violent cruelty in marriage, authorities have formulated laws regarding the problem. For instance, Corpus Juris (Vol. 19, pp. 47, 48) says: ?Continued acts of personal violence producing physical pain or bodily injury and a fear of future danger are recognized as sufficient cause for divorce in nearly all jurisdictions. It is not every slight violence committed . . . Actual violence to constitute ground for divorce must be attended with danger to life, limb, or health.?

The matter is a complex one, however, for both the husband and the wife could be in the wrong and contributing to the problem. Some times when a wife says that her husband abuses her, he claims that he is merely defending himself or trying to chastise her. American Jurisprudence (Vol. 26, p. 641) observes: ?Technically, any force other than that reasonably necessary to . . . coerce or control her in the governance of the family, as, for example, to control her in the exercise of unruly temper and make her behave herself, is an assault.?

If your husband were a Christian, then you would have recourse to the judicial committee of elders in the local congregation. By reasoning with him on God?s law they might aid him to appreciate the need to change his ways. The Bible says that strife, fits of anger and contentions are ?works of the flesh? that can keep a person out of God?s kingdom. (Gal. 5:19-21; Matt. 5:22) So, anyone claiming to be a Christian who repeatedly and unrepentantly gives in to violent fits of anger can be disfellowshiped.

But it seems that your husband is an unbeliever, so he may not be too concerned about God?s view. Still, you can seek the help of the elders. Of course, they are not trying to inject themselves into your marriage. But if your husband, perhaps in the interest of improving home conditions and enjoying life more himself, is agreeable to speak with them, the elders might be able to aid both of you.

Using reason and the Scriptures, they could tactfully consider why calmness and patience are so valuable and why heated anger causes so much unhappiness to all involved. (Prov. 14:17, 29; 22:24, 25) They could describe Christ?s pattern for husbands; it was one of loving concern, which obviously rules out wrathful abuse of one?s wife. (Eph. 5:25-33) A husband who follows this pattern will make life more pleasant for both himself and his wife. Also, the elders might be able to help both of you to examine yourselves to see where you can improve. Does perhaps your husband?s use of alcohol give rise to the violent abuse? (Prov. 23:29, 30) Is he possibly letting frustrations on his job carry over into the home? Are you, the wife, responsible? Do you nag or provoke him? ?A leaking roof . . . and a contentious wife are comparable.? (Prov. 27:15; 19:13; 21:9; 25:24) Do you fan the flames during arguments, instead of keeping calm? ?Love . . . does not become provoked.??Ps. 139:23, 24; 1 Cor. 13:4, 5; compare Ephesians 4:26.

But what if, despite such aid, your husband still is violent? Does the Bible say that a wife must remain with her husband despite beatings and danger to her health and life? We read: ?A woman who has an unbelieving husband, and yet he is agreeable to dwelling with her, let her not leave her husband.? (1 Cor. 7:13) Sometimes a Christian wife might finally conclude that her violently abusive husband is not ?agreeable to dwelling with her.? Such a wife might feel that as a last resort she must get a legal separation or divorce for her own protection. In this connection, note the Bible?s counsel: ?A wife should not depart from her husband; but if she should actually depart, let her remain unmarried or else make up again with her husband.??1 Cor. 7:10, 11.

Since, in the final analysis, it is the wife faced with such a difficult marital situation who must decide personally what to do, here are some serious aspects to weigh: If you remain with him, might you in time be able to help him to become a Christian? (1 Pet. 3:1, 2) Will a divorce or separation limit your association with your children or hinder your teaching them about God? What of your own sexual need? A divorce obtained when there is no basis in immorality would not free you to remarry, so will passion be a problem? (Matt. 19:9) Will you be forced to get a secular job, thus exposing yourself to new pressures and problems? Would such a job consume time now used in spiritual activities? Yes, separation may solve some problems, but it usually brings on others.

Some of these aspects were involved in the case of a woman in

?Why have you stayed with him?? the children asked. She said it was because she loved them and did not want to leave them, also because their father was providing for the family, which she could not do. Never did she tell them that she did not love their father, but explained that knowing the Bible?s truth enabled her to endure and to be a happy Christian. The abuse continued for more than twenty years. Now she has the joy of seeing ten of her eleven children serving Jehovah, and her husband has quit drinking, has improved in controlling his temper and accompanies her to Christian meetings. True, such may not be the outcome in all cases. But this account illustrates aspects that you can consider in evaluating your situation.

The essence of the Bible?s counsel, then, is that marriage mates should strive to remain together despite marital problems resulting from human imperfection. If, though, your circumstances appear to be so dangerous or severe that something must be done, then you must decide whether to seek protection through legal action or not.

*** w74 1/15 p. 39 Where Love of Truth Is Found ***

A case in point is one of Jehovah?s witnesses in . The mother of five children, she lived with her non-Witness husband in a very remote village of less than ten houses. Through jungles and swamps she would make her way to the Kingdom Hall, always being among the first to arrive. This despite the fact that for eight years her husband opposed her, even subjecting her to great physical abuse.

There was the time that he wounded her seriously with a stick. He inflicted wounds on one of her legs and told her, ?Let me see how you can go to the Kingdom Hall without legs.? She was in bed for some days, but as soon as she felt better and could walk a bit, her first trip was to the Kingdom Hall, to the disappointment of her husband.

Finally, after many similar incidents, came the climax. Their large rice farm was about to be harvested. The husband chose this time to abandon the family, with no intention of returning to his Witness wife. He went to the capital city of . Meanwhile, fellow Witnesses harvested the rice, thereby saving the mother and her children from starvation.

At , the husband, by coincidence, found accommodations with a man who, unknown to him, was one of Jehovah?s witnesses. This Witness invited him to a meeting and, though he did not know the nature of the meeting, he just could not refuse to go, as he was staying in the home. At the Kingdom Hall he was warmly welcomed and learned that those in attendance were Jehovah?s witnesses, just like his wife. Their kindness impressed him, as he never thought that such a ?crazy religion? (as he had been calling it) could be practiced by people in a city like . Later, in the house, he confessed to the Witness accommodating him that he was going back to his family and would worship Jehovah.

Back home he kneeled down before his wife, related his experiences and asked her for forgiveness. Since then he never misses a meeting at the Kingdom Hall and is now zealously telling others about the truth that he once bitterly opposed.

Flash,

Whatever ?privileges? women have they considered second-rate, pioneering, raising children, cleaning, cooking, conducting Bible studies, spending the lion share of time in the ministry, etc., etc.

DaCheech,

Remember this, people are rarely sexually attracted to just one person, so having sex before marriage is no guarantee of sexual faithfulness in a marriage. Many sisters work fast to grab up a single brother since there are so few available. Competition is stiff.

Pistoff,

So true, the WTS can quote from a worldly psychologist on marriage and divorce but JWs cannot go to a psychologist for help.

Actually, I read when men are on a hormonal rollercoaster all month long just not for a few days. Does that make them unqualified to lead?

I know a sister that after she finally got her husband (non-JW) to come to a meeting, he spent the whole time hearing himself called an unbeliever, a man with a sincere respect for God and the Bible. That was the last meeting he came to and he cancelled his study with the .

Evil Force,

It used to be even worse, EF. Read some WTs from the 1950s; it is scary.

Cybersista,

And your husband was expected to think he was less worthy because he was not a JW.

Jadegrandma,

Sorry, about your experience with the JW paternal grandfather. That is another thing; men are viewed as being more likely to tell the truth than women; shades of the Jewish thought that a woman could not testify in court and was less than an animal.

Mamochan13,

Yes, many non-JW men do not get respect in their own homes. When they are regarded as corpses by the DO and children hear that at the assembly, how can they have respect for them.

Heathen, don?t be bashful; tell us what you think (smile).

Actually, this article says that women are at fault if a marriage does not go well. If she were a better wife, then he would be a better husband.

It?s the old Adam and Eve blame game.

Stilla,

I didn?t even look at the picture that much. It?s been used before. So the WTS said that this was an occasion to hear a letter from Paul. All I could say is that the men weren?t listening very much. They should have been at the elders? school one brother told me about where there were non-stop jokes demeaning women and how wonderful it was to be there without the women. Elders play lip service to any positive comments about women. Their actions tell the true story.

Heathen and willyloman,

You need to attend some baptisms in Europe or where Speedos rule.

BTW, heathen, I posed another mention of that husband?s experience and it was in a French newspaper.

Love Blondie

Shania

Thank You Blondie,This lesson was a little hard to take, why do they think they can be experts on marriage when very few are even married? Oh yeah Holy Spirit is telling them what to write in the Watchtower for us to listen and obey......

I wanted to let you know, we heard that same illustration about if you are dating a worldly man or woman, you are kissing a dead corpse They are passing judgement on people they didn't even know........so unkind and unchristian, of course just another scare tactic.............didn't work though, alot of our young ones married outside the religion, they didn't care.................when will the madness stop with these people?

stillajwexelder

It?s not as funny when you are a woman sitting out in the audience knowing that the men in the congregation think you are just below a baptized, 14-year old boy, and that your intelligence level drops once a month.

I did not mean to offend blondie and my comment did not come over as I meant it. I truly hate the way the WTBTS treats and views women - some of whom are so brilliant the local elders are not even fit to lick their boots

bennyk

My Mum reports that at her Sunday meeting the WT Study was paired with a talk on relationships. In the public talk the worthy brother announced that the three parts of the three-fold cord (Eccl. 4:12) were the husband, his wife, and [NOTE THIS] "Jehovah's Organization" (!) Admittedly not in print, directly from the WTS --still, it was the statement of a "spirit-appointed Elder". When, exactly, did these people become completely demonized?

heathen

blondie --- I think everybody knows I'm not shy . LOL I really do think they need to find some perspective especially dealing with what the apostle Paul was saying . The apostle Peter even stated he felt Paul was sorta hard to follow with some of his wayward and changing doctrine . Paul did realize that there was nothing complete as far as understanding and that the spirit would continue to reveal accurate knowledge until the kingdom arrived .1 cor 13:9-10

blondie

I wanted to let you know, we heard that same illustration about if you are dating a worldly man or woman, you are kissing a dead corpse They are passing judgement on people they didn't even know........so unkind and unchristian, of course just another scare tactic.............

Well, Shania, that proves it is not just one DO's aberration but was in the outline from headquarters; can you imagine how sisters felt who became JWs after marriage? Especially if there husband had come with the to the assembly?

I did not mean to offend blondie and my comment did not come over as I meant it.

Don't worry, stilla, I'm not offended. It is just hard for any man in the organization to understand what it is like to be constantly put down and treated as second-class every meeting at the KH and in field service. To have some nincompoop man insist on driving your car in service because you are the woman, and he is in charge.

In the public talk the worthy brother announced that the three parts of the three-fold cord (Eccl. 4:12) were the husband, his wife, and [NOTE THIS] "Jehovah's Organization" (!) Admittedly not in print, directly from the WTS --still, it was the statement of a "spirit-appointed Elder".

Good point, benny. I checked, it is not listed as such in the publications, but God is the 3rd part of the cord. In their mind, disobeying the organization is the same as disobeying God, so

A = disobeying God

B = disobeying the organization

C = God = organization

blondie --- I think everybody knows I'm not shy .

Heathen, just teasing you a bit. Peter and Paul both came from a culture that viewed women as property. It is hard to believe that property could be kings and priests in heaven with Christ.

The next 2 weeks will deal with self-sacrifice and obeying God (or is that the organization?).

Blondie

EvilForce

Jehovah instituted marriage as a means of procreation and a source of happifying companionship.

happifying companionship?!?!

Where do they get some of their language??? Couldn't find the word happifying in the dictionary.

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 4-17-05 WT Study

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