Lack of evidence in "Insight" *gack* book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  mnb77

  The Stake vs. the Cross

  One of the doctrines of the Jehovah's Witnesses that is wrong, though not an attack on an essential doctrine of scripture, is their teaching that Jesus died on a stake instead of a cross (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 89-90). It really doesn't matter which Jesus died on. The issue is whether or not He shed His blood for our sins.

  In support of their position, they accurately state that the Greek word used in many Bibles which is translated into "cross" is the Greek word "stauros" which means, "an upright stake, esp. a pointed one, a cross." 1 If a stake were used, instead of a cross, then Jesus' hands would have been placed above His head with a nail driven through His wrists. Since the wrists would most likely overlap, only one nail is needed through both wrists. However, some Jehovah's Witnesses have maintained that Jesus' hands may have been placed one higher than another on the stake. The reason they say this is because of John 20:25 ,

  "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."

  Notice the use of the word nails (plural) in reference to hands (plural). This is strong evidence that Jesus was crucified on a cross with outstretched hands -- one nail in each hand which would explain the plural nails. If Jesus was crucified on a stake then both hands would have been placed above his head and only one nail would have been needed to go through both hands. Again, it says "...in his hands the print of the nails..."
• 

  mnb77

  it hurts to be on a cross..

  think of the position you're in while on the cross. Having your hands out to the side for a long period of time causes fluid to fill your lungs out. sometimes people on the cross would suficate to death quicker than others, and if the time got in the way of the Roman soldiers, they would break the legs of the person on the cross so they could no longer use their legs to push themselves up to get a breath of air. Tortuous if you ask me. That is another reason that in the OT it said not a bone would be broken of christ, this came to pass in the NT as he died before the soldiers broke the legs of the men on the crosses around Christ.

  mnb77
• 

  greendawn

  I also agree that it makes no difference on what sort of cross Jesus died but the JWs are making a meal out of it in order to intensify their separateness and denigrate the rest of the world.
  The cross is obviously nothing but a symbol of salvation for christians not one of pagan gods. In it they see the heroic act of their saviour that brings freedom.
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  Alleymom

  For a good photo of the cross-and-crown emblem which appeared on the old magazines, see the closeup view of this 1917 Watch Tower which was recently for sale on eBay:
  

  Ebay item # 4543305589 (auction completed).

  Aren't the cross-shaped windows in the tower a nice touch?

  I was discussing this not too long ago with a JW on another forum, who just couldn't believe that the organization used to teach that Jesus died on a cross. I posted photos of the memorial pyramid near Russell's grave with a close-up of the cross-and-crown emblem and the words Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.

  He claimed the photos were fake and that Russell wasn't buried there. I gave him the name and phone number of the cemetery, along with a quote from Russell's will giving his instructions that he was to be buried at Rosemont United Cemetery. I also dug up a description of his funeral, which made mention of the huge floral display in the shape of a cross.

  I've got a link saved (somewhere) to a website which has scans old WT literature with pictures of Jesus on the cross.

  Marjorie
• 

  Alleymom

  http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r5221.htm

  CLICK HERE

  Zion's Watchtower, Vol. XXXIV, No. 8, April 15, 1913.

  From the article, "

  CROSS-BEARING A PRIVILEGE"

  "When we think of the cross, too, we believe that it was of no light weight. We know of no light woods in the vicinity of Jerusalem. The most common tree there is the olive, which is an extremely heavy wood and of remarkable density. If we should suppose the cross to have been three feet in the ground and of reasonable height, it must have been at least twelve to fourteen feet long, and the cross-beam must have been at least five feet . Allowing a reasonable thickness for strength and for keeping it from bending under its load, we would think that the cross must have weighed from one hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds. This gives us the thought that it was no light weight."

  CLICK HERE

  Zion's Watch Tower, Vol. XXVII, No. 23, December 1, 1906.

  From the article, "IN THE

  CROSS OF CHRIST I GLORY. "

  "Arrived at Calvary, Golgotha, the wooden crosses were laid upon the ground, the victims stretched thereon, and nailed by hands and feet; then the soldiers lifted the crosses and set them into already prepared holes or sockets. The torture of these experiences can better be imagined than described."

  http://www.agsconsulting.com/htdbv5/r6000.htm

  CLICK HERE

  R6000 : page 359]

  THE FUNERAL SERVICES

  The remains of Pastor Russell--announcement of whose death was published in the last issue of THE WATCH TOWER--arrived in New York from the West on Friday morning, November 3, accompanied by his traveling secretary, Menta Sturgeon.

  THE FLORAL DISPLAY

  Elsewhere in THE WATCH TOWER will be found a full-page view of the floral display on the rostrum. It was the finest we have ever seen on such an occasion. The scene surpassed description. The rostrum of The Temple was so completely occupied by plants, ferns, flowers and a most wonderful collection of appropriate floral designs as to leave barely room enough for the speakers and the remains of our beloved Pastor. Moreover, the entire facing of every balcony and box was artistically decorated with a great variety of ferns and flowers.

  At the foot of the casket was placed a broken pillar of flowers, fittingly representing that dear body which, like the Lord's body, had been broken in the service of the brethren; while at the head was a magnificent floral cross and crown, the cross symbolizing his share in the death of Christ, and the crown symbolizing the Crown of Glory, which we believe he now wears with our dear Lord in Heaven.
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  Alleymom

  1993 "How Can Blood Save Your Life?" -- page 7

  Copied from:

  http://www.catholicapologetics.net/Jw_Cross.htm
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  Leolaia

  Wow, I'm surprised by that illustration. In the Revelation Climax book of 1988, they quoted Tacitus about Christian persecution but felt compelled to replace his references to "crosses" with "[stakes]", suggesting that the word cruces did not refer to two-beamed crosses at the time Tacitus wrote (untrue). But here they depict the different kinds of crosses that were indeed in vogue then.
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  Alleymom

  1921 The Harp of God - Judge Rutherford

  Copied from:

  http://www.catholicapologetics.net/Jw_Cross.htm
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  Alleymom

  Wow, I'm surprised by that illustration. In the Revelation Climax book of 1988, they quoted Tacitus about Christian persecution but felt compelled to replace his references to "crosses" with "[stakes]", suggesting that the word cruces did not refer to two-beamed crosses at the time Tacitus wrote (untrue). But here they depict the different kinds of crosses that were indeed in vogue then.

  It is surprising to see an illustration like that in such a recent (1993) piece of WT literature. I suppose a new edition will be out soon. BTW, I have not verified this. Does someone have a copy of this booklet? Marjorie
• 

  Daunt

  im dieing to know how your friend reacted to all that information alley. I would have burned all of my watchtowers in my believing days.