Lack of evidence in "Insight" *gack* book supporting stake theory.

by kwintestal 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Alleymom

  In the Revelation Climax book of 1988, they quoted Tacitus about Christian persecution but felt compelled to replace his references to "crosses" with "[stakes]", suggesting that the word cruces did not refer to two-beamed crosses at the time Tacitus wrote (untrue).

  I don't suppose they ever quoted from Irenaeus?

  " The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails. "

  Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (Adversus Haereses), Book II, Chapter XXIV.

  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book2.html

  CLICK HERE
• 

  Alleymom

  im dieing to know how your friend reacted to all that information alley. I would have burned all of my watchtowers in my believing days.

  Daunt --- It wasn't a personal friend, it was someone who started posting on the religion forum where I am a member. He totally lost his cool and posted some crude messages accusing me of throwing myself at another member, who is gay. He left shortly thereafter, but a lot of people were reading the thread and learned something. The most interesting reaction I got was from another JW, who has apparently been lurking on the board, but who had never posted anything previously. He was appalled at the other JW's behavior and felt compelled to issue an apology to me on behalf of the Witnesses. He said he wasn't ready to join the discussion, but I assume he has continued to read the board. I've had strong reactions in the past when I showed photos of the memorial pyramid at Russell's grave site to Witnesses at the door. One man even took the photos and interrupted his partner, who was talking to my husband about world conditions, and said, "Look at this!" (I'd love to know what they said to each other when they got back to the car!) Marjorie
• 

  Leolaia

  If they admitted what Irenaeus had to say, they'd have to admit what earlier writers like Justin Martyr or even (God forbid) classical Greek and Roman writers like Seneca, Plautus, or Lucian had to say.

  Then they'd have to drop the whole idea that crux and stauros did not mean cross. I think they'd just prefer not to let ppl know the facts of the matter.
• 

  Alleymom

  If they admitted what Irenaeus had to say, they'd have to admit what earlier writers like Justin Martyr or even (God forbid) classical Greek and Roman writers like Seneca, Plautus, or Lucian had to say.

  Then they'd have to drop the whole idea that crux and stauros did not mean cross. I think they'd just prefer not to let ppl know the facts of the matter.

  Leolaia --

  Not too long before the JW showed up on the board, I had been discussing the passage from Justin Martyr, where he says that when Aaron and Hur held up Moses' hands during the battle against the Amalekites, Moses formed the figure of a cross. So I was able to give him a link to messages where I talked about the passage:

  Exodus 17:12 KJV

  But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

  Here's the relevant section from Chapter 90 of Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho. link to chapter 90 .

  "When the people," replied I, "waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave (Nun) by name Jesus (Joshua), led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross , the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses; but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionally defeated, and he who prevailed prevailed by the cross. For it was not because Moses so prayed that the people were stronger, but because, while one who bore the name of Jesus (Joshua) was in the forefront of the battle, he himself made the sign of the cross.

  Marjorie
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  kwintestal

  I'm really enjoying this discussion.

  Very interseting that Martyr likened Moses' outstreached hand to Jesus on the cross.

  Kwin
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  Alleymom

  I'm really enjoying this discussion.

  Very interseting that Martyr likened Moses' outstreached hand to Jesus on the cross.

  Yes. And Justin Martyr was writing in the second century.

  Marjorie
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  Leolaia

  The most significant thing are the references to Jesus "bearing" the cross. If the stauros was only a stake, what did Jesus bear? Would he have rather dragged a beam behind him? Such a practice was never mentioned in ancient sources. But Greek and Roman sources do refer to the prisoner or slave carrying the patibulum prior to execution...this is the word referring to the crossbeam. In fact, the Roman method of execution was itself derived in part from a much older patibulum-bearing practice that goes back to pre-Republican times.
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  Alleymom

  Kwin --

  Do you have a copy of the booklet "How Can Blood Save Your Life?" ? I'd like to hear from someone who can confirm that this image is taken from the picture on page 7.

  1993 "How Can Blood Save Your Life?" -- page 7
• 

  heart2heart

  Alleymom,

  That is the picture from page 7 of the "How Can Blood Save Your Life" brochure - it was done in 1883 by an artist named Gerome... not a Watchtower Society artist. However, they did decide to use it in their brochure.... The subtitle beside the picture says "Whatever the consequences, the early Christians refused to violate God's law on blood".

  Heart2Heart (Mrs. Kwin)
• 

  Alleymom

  That is the picture from page 7 of the "How Can Blood Save Your Life" brochure - it was done in 1883 by an artist named Gerome... not a Watchtower Society artist. However, they did decide to use it in their brochure.... The subtitle beside the picture says "Whatever the consequences, the early Christians refused to violate God's law on blood".

  Mrs. Kwin ---

  Thank you so much for the information! May I ask, does the brochure identify the artist? I would be very interested in seeing a scan of the whole page, if you (or anyone else) would be able to do that.

  Thanks again,

  Marjorie