by kwintestal 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Mrs. Kwin --
I found a couple of links with more information about Jean-Leon Gerome. The painting is called The Christian Martyrs? Last Prayer.
http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=97
http://www.umfa.utah.edu/index.php?id=NDc0
Marjorie
Here are the scanned pages. If you're interested in the files I can email them to you, send me a pm or email at [email protected]
The picture source states: "Painting my Gerome, 1883, courtesy of Walters Art Gallery, Baltimore"
Kwin
Sorry, I don't know how to make the pictures any bigger, and the "hosted by JWD.com" mark is covering the picture source on the close up.
Kwin
*** re chap. 17 p. 101 ?Slaughtered Souls? Rewarded ***The historian Tacitus reports: "They [Christians] died by methods of mockery; some were covered with the skins of wild beasts and then torn by dogs, some were [impaled]*, some were burned as torches to light at night."
Footnote re chap. 17 p. 101 ?Slaughtered Souls? RewardedCompare New World Translation Reference Bible, page 1577, appendix 5C, "Torture Stake."
At least they are honest that they changed his quote! LMAO
Kwin
Kwin ---
Check your PM. When you put the altered Tacitus quote next to the painting of the early martyrs in the Blood booklet, it does boggle the mind.
"Whatever the consequences, the early Christians refused to violate God's law on blood".
So those martyrs in the painting were being punished because they refused to violate God's law on blood? I must be fuzzy-headed today, but I just don't understand where they get that from. What am I missing here?
Marjorie
BTW, I'm doing some extra new research on the meaning of stauros in Greek texts...found a few new things. I'll include them in a new thread sometime that I've wanted to do on crucifixion.
Leolaia,
Did the REVELATION CLIMAX book substitute the word "stake" for the word "cross"
or was the word "impaled" used?
Thanks.
Yeah, looks like it was "[impaled]" instead of "[stakes]". Sorry about that...I misremembered because the original verison of the quote given in the All Scripture Is Inspired book (p. 235) refers to those "nailed to crosses", but rather than have "nailed to [stakes]" they simply replaced it as "[impaled]". It's still making the same claim tho, as the footnote in the Revelation Climax book indicates.
Alleymom : So those martyrs in the painting were being punished because they refused to violate God's law on blood? I must be fuzzy-headed today, but I just don't understand where they get that from. What am I missing here?
Hi Alleymom, so good to see your arm active again. On the previous page the booklet states :
Tertullian later wrote: "Consider those who with greedy thirst, at a show in the arena, take the fresh blood of wicked criminals . . . and carry it off to heal their epilepsy." He contrasted them with Christians, who "do not even have the blood of animals at [their] meals . . . At the trials of Christians you offer them sausages filled with blood. You are convinced, of course, that [it] is unlawful for them." So, early Christians would risk death rather than take in blood.
I do not know of any evidence the early Christians were punished for refusing blood and it seems from what Tertullian wrote that this was a form of taunting, but it is evidence that they were still refusing blood at that time.
While I think it more likely that Christ was put to death on a T-shaped cross than on a stake, I do not think that second century writers can be cited as authoritative on physical descriptions of early events. We have very little description of Christ's physical appearance in scripture because that was not relevant to the message. Neither was it relevant, imo, whether the instrument of torture was a cross or a stake.
Earnest
Hi, Earnest --
How nice to hear from you! The glass is about 1/4 full as far as my arm goes, but that does represent progress!
I do not know of any evidence the early Christians were punished for refusing blood and it seems from what Tertullian wrote that this was a form of taunting, but it is evidence that they were still refusing blood at that time.
Thanks for explaining. I dug out my WT Library CD and read the brochure. The caption with the picture seemed to indicate that the Christians were being martyred for refusing blood, which confused me. I had forgotten about the Tertullian quotation. While it does seem they were refusing to ingest blood in Terullian's time, I think it would go beyond the evidence to say they were martyred for refusing blood.
We have very little description of Christ's physical appearance in scripture because that was not relevant to the message. Neither was it relevant, imo, whether the instrument of torture was a cross or a stake.
That is the very point I brought up to Mike, the JW with whom I was corresponding on the other forum. I suggested that what was more important is that the Scripture says:
He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the [xylon] , in order that we might be done with sins and live to righteousness. And "by his stripes YOU were healed." 1 Peter 2:24 NWT
Mike said he had been in the organization for many years, but he did not seem to know that the society taught for many years that Jesus died on a cross. Nor did he know they had used emblems of a cross on their literature, on jewelry, and on the memorial pyramid at the Bethel plot at Rosemont United Cemetery.
To my mind, the significance of this is that for many years the organization did not think the shape of the instrument of torture was relevant to the message. This emphasis on the stake developed quite some time after Jesus supposedly returned and was guiding the organization.
BTW, I have an article on an Amel-Marduk tablet I think you would like. I PM'd VM44 as well. I'll try to post a message on it soon.
Regards,
Marjorie
