Alcoholism - a disease or a choice?

by Sirona 93 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Sirona

    I've heard that alcoholics can't have one drink because the one drink automatically "pushes a button" which means that they have to continue drinking available alcohol until they pass out or run out of alcohol? Do you know of any studies about this? What is the physical "cause" of this?

    Well, my knowledge mostly, apart from the examples I mention, concern substances other than alcohol.

    However, withdrawl from alcohol can give you physiological symptoms just as much as withdrawl from heroin can.

    As for the 'single drink' theory, this may be true for some people and I understand it is accepted wisdom under AA philosophy. However, the gentleman I refered to earlier recovered through other therapy and can drink 'normally', albeit with mindfulness and caution nowadays.

    The 'drink until it's all gone' thing is unlikely to be physical, but an uncontrollable psychological (to that person) compulsion. The person is aware of what they are doing but are incapable of stopping themselves, and the effect of inhibition reduction of alcohol on any human will make the ability to stop themselves reduce as they drink.

    This 'choice' thing some people insist on...

    Again, some can control their attraction/compulsion for alcohol. Others can't. This doesn't mean the person who can't "chose" to be lying in an ally in sub-zero temperatures reeking of their own piss

    Imagine! "Okay, if you want to be a college graduate working in Silicon Valley put your hand up? Okay, line on the right. Okay, hands up if you want to be a wino? Okay, line on the left... ".

    Choice is too fluffy a word to use; it implies there is a totally free choice made from a level playing field by uniform people. A childish simplification, albeit one that allows nice levels of self-rightousness. Golly, what's that about old habits dying hard? Seems alcoholics aren't the only ones who need to work on self-control...

    Even those who say that it is a choice use phrases like "His body had a terrible addiction to alcohol" contrasting with "Fact of it is, most of them just liked getting drunk. All of them could control the drinking... ". Addiction implies lack of control! The very explanation of an opinion defining alcoholism as a choice contradicts that same opinion.

    I think Ross has a good point when he says "People can choose to put themselves at risk", but they may not be aware of the risk of the choices they make. It's easy enough; those of us who joined the JW's of our own 'free will' thought we knew what we were doing when in fact we were putting ourselves at risk. With some people, they don't know something as simple as having a drink is what will eventualy put them at risk.

    I have a sneaking suspisicon that those who dispute the genuine lack of control of an addict have never been one or met one who was active in their addiction. Once again it is a spectrum of behaviour/affliction; lack of control doesn't mean no control nor does it mean someone cannot be helped.

    Someone with a tendancy to alcoholism might have other parts of his individual physiological and mental make-up that allow him to combat it. That doesn't mean everyone with that tendancy has the other internal factors that allow them to control that desire.

    To argue otherwise is like saying that ALL people who are attracted to children commit sexual offenses against children. That's utter nonsence; ask anyone who knows about the subject and you'll realise there must be many others with the same desires but have the ability to control them.

    And that ability to control action is NOT the same as a simplistic division between good and bad.

    It's interesting that those who are most condemnatory towards alcoholics are those making assertions it is purely choice (which ignores a lot of data), and who keep on acting like people always are in full control of what they do (which ignores a lot of data). Not one person seeking to condemn alcohlics as people who make a free choice has done ANYTHING other than assert it; no proof, no backing, just their opinion, which of course they are entitled to...

    I have seen a friend of mine go into and out of alcohol addiction. I have seen her twin brother suffer the same. I've seen someone so deep in denial they had reached Lake Victoria, insisting they had no problem the night after I had searched railway tracks under bridges for her body (she'd rung me from the railway station in a cry for help, but not been where she said she'd be when I got there).

    I eventually found her in an allyway, unconcious with an empty bottle of brandy (100lbs girl), and carrying her home to sleep it off on my lap in her parent's living room (boy did her dad get a surprise the following morning... ). A 20 year-old girl, with a dozen empty bottles scattered round her room; sweet, intelligent, worked in an Old People's home, a total drunk, and totally lost and unreachable.

    P.S. She isn't now

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    Wow - some very interesting comments here.

    lack of control doesn't mean no control nor does it mean someone cannot be helped.

    Abaddon I totaly agree with the above. I also think there should be a distinction, when considering this question as to whether Alcoholism is a disease of the mind or of the body. Or can it be both simultaneously or is it one or the other?

    I am curious as a person who does drink rather a lot and has done since I was 16 bar about 18 months where I stopped in order to get reinstated.

    I am not sure if I am alcoholic or not, I have tried to stop, mainly on those mornings after the night before when I have said something horrible to somebody or just been awfully embarrassing. However my boyfriend, who does from time to time complain about my drinking, does not think I should stop drinking, just not drink so much.

    As some have said an alcoholic is one who can't just have one drink. I can have just one drink and will if it is a birthday lunch and I have to go back to work, but I really cannot see the point of just one drink and would rather not have a drink at all if I can't have 3 or 4 drinks. Does that mean I am alcoholic or does it mean I drink to relax and one doesn;t do it for me - it just makes me thirsty for the nexty one. However I can physically and mentally do it.

    I do exceed the weekly unit recommendation and always hav, but my drinking patterns have changed. I used to drink in my teens and early 20's twice a week - heavily - enough to pass out and I wouldnt want to drink in between. Nowadays I very rarely want to passout, but I do like to be drunk, not blind drunk, just very tipsy. But I find it increasingly difficult to go more than 48 hours between drinks, but I drink less on the ocassions I do drink, but still over the weekly limit. I water down my drinks to make them last longer and control how drunk I am.

    I begin many mornings saying to myself right lets have a few days off drinking starting today. Its very rare that I get to that evening and don't have a drink even though I am really adamant that I am not going to.

    So does this make me an alcoholic? If it doesn't hurt anyone apart from my liver does it matter? I have deliberately not learned to drive until now because I was scared that I would get behind the wheel and do someone an injury when drunk, but do feel I can trust myself in that respect now. I do realise that I drink too much to make a good mother and 9 months without being drunk would be impossible at the moment. Is it wrong for me to enjoy a few drinks, even though due to circumstances I enjoy at least half of my drinks alone?

    (The longest I have been without a drink is 12 days in the last 8 years, which I managed, but had been trying to make it a month which I failed.)

    Sorry - lots of questions here, but I am anxious to get some perspective on my habits and whether I am going to wake up one morning reaching for a drink!

  • upside/down
    upside/down
    I am not sure if I am alcoholic or not

    Re read your post.... you definitely "sound" like an alcoholic.

    Talk to someone trusted that your not emtionally involved with... show them the post you wrote.

    Good Luck.

    u/d

  • fairchild
    fairchild

    Crumpet, I agree with upside down.

    I am not sure if I am alcoholic or not, I have tried to stop, mainly on those mornings after the night before when I have said something horrible to somebody or just been awfully embarrassing.

    "Tried" is the key word in this line. Think about what you said here ever so carefully.

    After you have said something horrible, or after you have been embarrassing.. both things usually only happen when a person has had TOO MUCH to drink.

    However my boyfriend, who does from time to time complain about my drinking, does not think I should stop drinking, just not drink so much.

    If your boyfriend complains about your drinking, it means that your drinking AFFECTS him. Otherwise, he wouldn't mention it.

    As some have said an alcoholic is one who can't just have one drink. I can have just one drink and will if it is a birthday lunch and I have to go back to work,

    ....because you don't have an option of having more than one in this situation, not because you decide for yourself that you are going to have just one.

    but I really cannot see the point of just one drink and would rather not have a drink at all if I can't have 3 or 4 drinks. Does that mean I am alcoholic or does it mean I drink to relax and one doesn;t do it for me - it just makes me thirsty for the nexty one. However I can physically and mentally do it.

    That means that right now you need 3 or 4 drinks to 'relax'. Look back and you will remember a time when you only needed 2 drinks to relax. If you don't do something about it, you will soon need 5 drinks or more to relax. "I can physically and mentally do it" is called denial. Moreover, if you could mentally do it, you probably would not have posted what you just did.

    I do exceed the weekly unit recommendation and always hav,

    Red flag. Big one.

    but my drinking patterns have changed. I used to drink in my teens and early 20's twice a week - heavily - enough to pass out and I wouldnt want to drink in between.

    most of us did.

    Nowadays I very rarely want to passout, but I do like to be drunk, not blind drunk, just very tipsy. But I find it increasingly difficult to go more than 48 hours between drinks, but I drink less on the ocassions I do drink, but still over the weekly limit.

    This is much more of a problem than what happened in your teenage years.

    I find it increasingly difficult to go more than 48 hours between drinks

    Red flag

    I water down my drinks to make them last longer and control how drunk I am.

    Red flag, the size of a twin bed sheet.

    I begin many mornings saying to myself right lets have a few days off drinking starting today. Its very rare that I get to that evening and don't have a drink even though I am really adamant that I am not going to.

    Red flag.

    So does this make me an alcoholic?

    I am by no means qualified to answer that question. All I can say is, please, please talk to someone.

    If it doesn't hurt anyone apart from my liver does it matter?

    Wrong. Alcoholic or not, you obviously do drink too much, and that is going to end up hurting much, much more than just your liver. Your boyfriend is obviously already affected by your drinking.

    I have deliberately not learned to drive until now because I was scared that I would get behind the wheel and do someone an injury when drunk, but do feel I can trust myself in that respect now.

    Huge red flag here. You have got to promise yourself that you will never, and I mean NEVER drive after you have been drinking. 3 or 4 drinks DO impair a person's ability to react in case of a sudden obstacle in the road. (read..a dog crossing the road, or perhaps a child). Do NOT tell yourself that you can handle it and that you are just fine to drive. After 3 or 4 drinks, you are NOT fine to drive.

    I do realise that I drink too much to make a good mother and 9 months without being drunk would be impossible at the moment.

    red flag

    Is it wrong for me to enjoy a few drinks, even though due to circumstances I enjoy at least half of my drinks alone?

    Red flag. You are trying to justify your drinking habit here.

    (The longest I have been without a drink is 12 days in the last 8 years, which I managed, but had been trying to make it a month which I failed.)

    red flag.

    Crumpet, this doesn't look good, imho. I admire you for writing about this so openly. No, you are not a drop-down drunk, but you do seem to have a problem with alcohol. Upside down gave you a very good suggestion. Print out what you have written and show it to someone who is not too close to you.

    You obviously need a buzz in order to get you through a day. At the point where you're at, I can guarantee you that it is not going to stop with 3 or 4 drinks. If you're up to that amount and you question yourself about it, then you have to address the red flags very carefully.

    Good luck, crumpet.

    Chris

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    Crumpet, you have to remember that Britain has a completely different drink culture to the US, so people on this board might see lots of red flags where it is perfectly "normal" here. There is a huge grey expanse between drinkers, habitual drinkers, binge drinkers (like myself), problem drinkers and alcoholics. I don't mean to say you have no problem, but you need to get it in perspective and be realistic and the last thing you should do is panic.

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    Wow! Thank you for your responses and the detail. I got home early about 4pm today - since then, I will be honest, (and it is now 8pm) I have had a martini and lemonade, a pims and lemonade and 2 more large pims and lemonades - plus 4 glasses of wine and now on a bloody mary prepared by said boyfriend who has complained about my drinking. In( fact all drinks provided by said boyfriend. )And I complain about his drinking- but only when it involves him being out until the wee hours. I don't go out very much - I can't afford to (ooh I wonder why!)

    I definitely will give the replies to this message more detailed thought - but I am about to leave London for Edinburgh, but I was quite contrite and shocked to actually see what other people thought of my queries.

    Look back and you will remember a time when you only needed 2 drinks to relax.

    The above was one stopper tho - I never needed 2 drink to relax - I used to drink, and please don't be too shocked, about 10 pints of cider and lager before I considered myself properly relaxed. Now i realise hat comatose and relaxed are quite different things.

    Ballistic - I've never seen your posts before but I think your point was very true - Brits drink A LOT. And also my drinking is modest compared to any one of my friends who I can not keep up with to save my life! It was a good counterpoint to a big shock and I think something in the middle is quite right.

    I have to go right now as I am cooking dinner - beware kitchen equipment!

    I am so interested as to people's opinions on this particular matter.

    I would also like to add that this bloody mary is my last drink of the evening. I used to never ever mix food and alcohol as it made me sick - no wonder on so many pints I think now. But now I always eat after a drink and thats what I am about to do now.

    Cheers folks and please add whatever else you think can help me think in more perspective on the matter.

    Thank you

    crumpet

    Ballistic

  • doogie
    doogie

    IMO, if you can look past the health problems that (heavy) drinking poses, it's not a big deal until it starts to affect the unrelated parts of your life. (i.e. unable to function at work or missing a lot of time, relationships negatively impacted, financial trouble...etc.) however, as other people have mentioned, many times you're far too dependent when you finally realize a negative effect to actually DO anything about it. that's the problem.

    i figure, if its not causing any problems in your life, and you're not concerned with the physical damage that drinking may contribute to, then drink up!

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    When I chose to drink, it was because I needed the change of mental state from ME to THE OTHER ME. The me that could laugh, yes flirt or have sex without guilt or self loathing. If you suffer from those feelings (JWS definitely induce them) Even a few hours of release is like salvation and well worth the hangover.

    I bet most of the condemners on this thread have more self esteem than I did. I have it now and drink isn't the issue it was.

    But Yes - I chose to drink for most of my adult life - for all the above, because I chose to buy into the lie told me when I was four years old. The babysitter told me (after raping me) that if I said anything, he'd say I "MADE him do that."

    By the time I got treatment, I still didn't understand what was going on. My own Mother is still in denial, and just says it is fashionable to cry Child Abuse. My own reality is denied, even now. I didn't even feel like a real human being. Just a JW cut out.

    Said enough for now.

    HB

    That's another threadload, but REPEAT alcoholism is a syndrome, indicating a mental disease, hereditary or otherwise

  • ballistic
  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Crumpet,

    Please read this taken from http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/default/en_about_aa.cfm?pageid=4

    Twelve questions only you can answerCopyright © 1973 by A.A. World Services, Inc.


    IS A.A. FOR YOU?

    Only you can decide whether you want to give A.A.a try ?
    whether you think it can help you.

    We who are in A.A. came because we finally gave up trying to control our drinking. We still hated to admit that we could never drink safely. Then we heard from other A.A. members that we were sick. (We thought so for years!) We found out that many people suffered from the same feelings of guilt and loneliness and hopelessness that we did. We found out that we had these feelings because we had the disease of alcoholism.

    We decided to try and face up to what alcohol had done to us. Here are some of the questions we tried to answer honestly. If we answered YES to four or more questions, we were in deep trouble with our drinking. See how you do. Remember, there is no disgrace in facing up to the fact that you have a problem.

    Answer YES or NO to the following questions.

    1 - Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?
    Most of us in A.A. made all kinds of promises to ourselves and to our families. We could not keep them. Then we came to A.A. A.A. said: "Just try not to drink today." (If you do not drink today, you cannot get drunk today.)

    Yes No

    2 - Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking-- stop telling you what to do?
    In A.A. we do not tell anyone to do anything. We just talk about our own drinking, the trouble we got into, and how we stopped. We will be glad to help you, if you want us to.

    Yes No

    3 - Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?
    We tried all kinds of ways. We made our drinks weak. Or just drank beer. Or we did not drink cocktails. Or only drank on weekends. You name it, we tried it. But if we drank anything with alcohol in it, we usually got drunk eventually.

    Yes No

    4 - Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?
    Do you need a drink to get started, or to stop shaking? This is a pretty sure sign that you are not drinking "socially."

    Yes No

    5 - Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?
    At one time or another, most of us have wondered why we were not like most people, who really can take it or leave it.

    Yes No

    6 - Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?
    Be honest! Doctors say that if you have a problem with alcohol and keep on drinking, it will get worse -- never better. Eventually, you will die, or end up in an institution for the rest of your life. The only hope is to stop drinking.

    Yes No

    7 - Has your drinking caused trouble at home?
    Before we came into A.A., most of us said that it was the people or problems at home that made us drink. We could not see that our drinking just made everything worse. It never solved problems anywhere or anytime.

    Yes No

    8 - Do you ever try to get "extra" drinks at a party because you do not get enough?
    Most of us used to have a "few" before we started out if we thought it was going to be that kind of party. And if drinks were not served fast enough, we would go some place else to get more.

    Yes No

    9 - Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don't mean to?
    Many of us kidded ourselves into thinking that we drank because we wanted to. After we came into A.A., we found out that once we started to drink, we couldn't stop.

    Yes No

    10 - Have you missed days of work or school because of drinking?
    Many of us admit now that we "called in sick" lots of times when the truth was that we were hung-over or on a drunk.

    Yes No

    11 - Do you have "blackouts"?
    A "blackout" is when we have been drinking hours or days which we cannot remember. When we came to A.A., we found out that this is a pretty sure sign of alcoholic drinking.

    Yes No

    12 - Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?
    Many of us started to drink because drinking made life seem better, at least for a while. By the time we got into A.A., we felt trapped. We were drinking to live and living to drink. We were sick and tired of being sick and tired.

    Yes No

    Did you answer YES four or more times? If so, you are probably in trouble with alcohol. Why do we say this? Because thousands of people in A.A. have said so for many years. They found out the truth about themselves ? the hard way.

    But again, only you can decide whether you think A.A. is for you. Try to keep an open mind on the subject. If the answer is YES, we will be glad to show you how we stopped drinking ourselves. Just call.

    A.A. does not promise to solve your life's problems. But we can show you how we are learning to live without drinking "one day at a time." We stay away from that "first drink." If there is no first one, there cannot be a tenth one. And when we got rid of alcohol, we found that life became much more manageable.

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