WT 1/2005 questions from readers... :it is his angel ..acts 12:15

by eye 23 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • eye 23
    eye 23

    I wasn't saying that I was right in my thinking. I was saying that is what I percieved this scripture to mean, on first reading it....which is WHY I asked the question if others thought it was weird reasoning?

    The comments that were posted were very interesting to me and it was indeed food for thought. However a fact is a proven theory and there can never be any fool proof way of knowing exactly what they thought ...because non of us were there...so..everything is heresay,,,,but interesting and food for thought.

    other's posted and then said what their beliefs were..you, on the other hand, TOLD me that I was wrong....I found your comments to be arrogant and hurtful when all I asked was if others thought it was mis matched reasoning.....would have been nice just to have your view on this scripture.... and not your view on me.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    It is my belief that the wt's (and by proxy your own) position is basically an argument about straw, after reading a book about seeds. The wt arguments are grounded in the idea that the scriptures are an historic account of things - to myself, many others, and I believe the writers themselves, they are a theological account.

    the FACT is that the disciples didn't ASK the question 'IS it peters angel? he looked like peter and talked like peter and the disciples thought that it WAS peter's ANGEL.

    hence they made a statement............it IS peters angel!........thinking full well that peter had been killed and was now an angel in heaven...returned to give them a message from god.

    did anyone else read this article and think it was mismatched reasoning???

    In this story Peter's faith was increased, and thereso his freedom. I believe that before 'the angel of the Lord', had freed him thus, there still had remained, some fear with him - ie. a notion relating to deeds and punishment, or failure to perform. Though of course he had not (by the Spirit) been preaching that - Recognizing Peter's voice, in her joy she did not open the gate but ran in and told that Peter was standing at the gate. The 'others' kind of knew that regarding Peter, who had been perceiving a knew understanding lately - "in a trance I saw a vision.....I heard a voice saying to me, `Rise, Peter; kill and eat.'" So it was that the others were suprised that the evil one had not been able to cause him any harm.

    Consider this parable.

    And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight.....I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him whatever he needs.

    But Peter continued knocking....

    As for the "historical accuracy" of the story - I don't understand what it has to do with it other than the means for holding up the fruit of the story - we're eating seeds, not straw. The wtbts postion and the argument you're refuting with is this - Go yourselves, get your straw wherever you can find it; but your work will not be lessened in the least.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Are there any commentators (I couldn't find one) that support the idea that those in the house thought it was Peter's spirit that was at the door and not just a run of the mill guardian angel?

    N. T. Wright endorses this view. He says: "The praying Christians ... believed that Peter must have been executed in the prison. They, like most societies ancient and modern, knew well enough that grieving friends and relatives sometimes receive what seems like a personal visit, vision or apparition in which the recently deceased appears for a few moments, perhaps says something, and then disappears again" (p. 134), and the expression "his angel" refers "to the intermediate 'angelic' state in which the person will now remain, with his body dead and buried" (ibid). I think D. A. Carson has a similar view.

    As I went into my post above, there is evidence both for and against this view. The main difficulty with the guardian angel explanation is that the "angel" resembled Peter in voice. There is however a rabbinical, tho late, tradition claiming resemblance between guardian angels and the people they protect: "It was Esau's angelic prince with whom Jacob struggled: to this it was said, 'I have seen your face as the appearance of the face of the angel, as the angel's face was, so is your face' " (Genesis Rabba 78, [50a]). But this may not be sufficient to resolve the difficulty. The account in Acts 12 is also paralleled in the story of Jesus' arrest/execution/resurrection in Luke, and in the paralleled text, it is Jesus who is misapprehended as a spirit or apparition. This would support the interpretation that Rhoda's housemates referred to Peter's postmortem spiritual state.

    Those in the resurrection were frequently described as like angels, or having angelic splendor, or joining in fellowship with the angels, and texts that do not presume a future resurrection may indeed describe the dead as having such a state, and other texts may presume that the intermediate existence occurs in heaven:

    "And I know that there is hope for him whom you have created from the dust for the eternal assembly, and the perverse spirit you have cleansed from great transgression to be stationed with the host of the holy ones and to enter into fellowship with the congregation of the children of heaven. And you have apportioned to man an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge" (1QH 3:21-22).
    "Formerly you were worn out by evils and tribulations, but now you will shine like the luminaries of heaven; you will shine and appear, and the portals of heaven will be opened to you...for you will have great joy like the angels of heaven" (1 Enoch 104:2-4).
    "And there I saw another vision, the dwellings of the holy ones, and the resting places of the righteous. There my eyes saw their dwellings with his righteous angels and their resting places with the holy ones" (1 Enoch 39:4-5).
    "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30).
    "People depart from this life in accordance with nature's law, thus repaying what God had lent them...Their souls remain without blemish, and obedient, and receive the most holy place in heaven. From there, when the ages come round again, they come back again to live instead in holy bodies" (Josephus, Jewish War, 3.374).
    "When they, therefore, will see that those over whom they are exalted now will then be more exalted and glorified than they, then both these and those will be changed, into the splendor of angels and those into startling visions and horrible shapes...For they will live in the heights of that world and they will be like the angels and be equal to the stars. And they will be changed into any shape which they wished, from beauty to loveliness, and from light to the splendor of glory...And the excellence of the righteous will then be greater than that of the angels" (2 Baruch 51:2, 10-12).
    "Blessed are they that possess their wives as though they had them not, for they shall inherit God. Blessed are they that have the fear of God, for they shall become angels of God" (Acts of Paul 3:5).
    "Fill my heart with good things, Lord, as an earthly angel, as having become immortal, as having received the gift which is from you" (Prayer of Jacob, 19).

    Guardian angels of individuals are mentioned (or thought to be referred to) in such texts as Psalm 91:11-12, Jubilees 35:17, Philo, Gig. 9; Testament of Levi 5:3, Pseudo-Philo 11:12, 15:5, 59:4, Matthew 18:10, Hebrews 1:14, 3 Baruch 12-13; t. Shab. 17:2-3, Sifre Num. 40.1.5.

    Some other interesting things about this verse....Much of Acts is allusive of Homer and it has been suggested that ch. 12 parallels the story of Priam's escape from Achilles (with the help of the god Hermes) and his appearance to Cassandra (cf. Iliad, 24)....The verb mainó "to be mad" also occurs in Acts 26:24 with reference to Paul's belief in the resurrection...and the Codex Bezae has somewhat different wording in Acts 12:15 (elegon pros autén tukhon ho angelos).

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    There is however a rabbinical, tho late, tradition claiming resemblance between guardian angels and the people they protect:

    Wasn' t there a very ancient Persian conception of each human having a spirit twin in the heavens that at times intervened? There was a word for it that escapes me. I posted a comment a couple years ago but didn't want to wade for hours finding it. I believe it was felt by some that this was the roots of the guadian angel stories.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    PP,

    Probably fravashi is the word you're looking for:

    http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/6.htm

    Among the Luke-Acts texts I listed above I found Acts 6:15 especially relevant: And all who sat in the council looked intently at him, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Thanksd narkissos yes that was it. A number of commentators have suggested that the fravashi guarding spirits of each person were the inspiration for the Jewish guardian angels.

    Leolaia briefly alluded to Matt 18:10, it is worth quoting to demonstarte that the doctrin was current and adopted by Christians.

    "10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that (J) their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven."

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