WT 1/2005 questions from readers... :it is his angel ..acts 12:15

by eye 23 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • eye 23
    eye 23

    Hi

    I was wondering if anyone else has read this article in the watchtower ?

    here, someone is aking the question: upon hearing that the imprisoned peter was at the door, why did the disciples say: it is his angel ?

    to my reasoning ...if it walks like a duck and quakes like a duck ....it IS a duck

    OBVIOUSLY the disciples thought that you went to heaven when you died and they thought that this WAS peter returned.

    the article goes into a mis matched theory and quotes ecclesiates 9:5'10 which just (in my mind) shows the condition of the dead...i.e that when dead and returned to spirit form you no longer think like a human but that of a spirit creature...i.e no love hate etc.. (human emotions and feelings have been forgotton them, now they are spiritual beings) (the rememberance of being human has been forgotton to them

    the WTBTS even go as far as to say that the disciples may have erroneously thought it was peters gaurdian angel..even though the bible dosen't make mention of this?????????????

    PHEW... talk about trying to make the shoe fit!

    this article quotes ECCLESIASTES 9: 5,10 but if you look up the word ...'concious' it is really translated knowlege ... when translated (YARA means knowlege) and knowlege can just mean knowlege about being human i.e feeling love hate envey etc... (i.e you can be concious but have no knowlege of advanced maths)

    the FACT is that the disciples didn't ASK the question 'IS it peters angel? he looked like peter and talked like peter and the disciples thought that it WAS peter's ANGEL.

    hence they made a statement............it IS peters angel!........thinking full well that peter had been killed and was now an angel in heaven...returned to give them a message from god.

    did anyone else read this article and think it was mis matched reasoning???

  • ezekiel3
    ezekiel3

    The article in it's entirety.

    June 1, 2005 Watchtower page 31


    Questions From Readers

    Upon hearing that the imprisoned Peter was at the door, why did the disciples say: "It is his angel"?-Acts 12:15.

    The disciples may erroneously have assumed that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate. Consider the context of this passage.

    Peter had been arrested by Herod, who had put James to death. So the disciples had good reason to believe that Peter would meet a similar end. Bound by chains, the imprisoned Peter was guarded by four shifts of four soldiers each. Then, one night he was miraculously freed and led out of the prison by an angel. When Peter finally realized what was happening, he said: "Now I actually know that Jehovah sent his angel forth and delivered me out of Herod's hand." -Acts 12:1-11.

    Peter immediately went to the house of Mary the mother of John Mark, where a number of the disciples were gathered. When he knocked on the door of the gateway, a servant girl named Rhoda went to answer. Upon recognizing Peter's voice, she ran to tell the others without even letting him in! At first, the disciples could not believe that Peter was at the gate. Instead, they erroneously assumed: "It is his angel." -Acts 12:12-15.

    Did the disciples believe that Peter had already been put to death and that his disembodied spirit was at the gate? This could hardly be the case, for Jesus' followers knew the Scriptural truth about the dead - that they are "conscious of nothing at all." (Eccle-siastes 9:5, 10) What, then, could the disciples have meant when they said: "It is his angel"?

    Jesus' disciples knew that throughout history, angels rendered personal assistance to Cod's people. For example, Jacob spoke of "the angel who has been recovering me from all calamity." (Genesis 48:16) And regarding a young child in their midst, Jesus told his followers: "See to it that you men do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that their angels in heaven always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven." -Matthew 18:10.

    Interestingly, Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible renders the word ag'ge-los ("angel") as "messenger." It appears that there was a belief among some Jews that each servant of God had his own angel - in effect, a "guardian angel." Of course, this view is not directly taught in God's Word. Still, it is possible that when the disciples said, "It is his angel," they were assuming that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I think the text is somewhat ambiguous. Your interpretation is certainly felicitous with the connection between "Peter's angel" and Peter's voice; if some other being is referred to here, it would have to be an angel that resembled Peter in voice, if not appearance, and I know of no other allusion to guardian angels that presumed physical resemblance. It is on this basis that N. T. Wright argued that Acts 12:15 referred to Peter in his intermediate state between death and resurrection. However, this view has difficulties of its own; the resurrected dead are usually referred to as "like angels" (rather than actually being angels, tho there may be exceptions), and the disembodied dead in the intermediate state were not referred to as angels as far as I know (although N. T. Wright interprets Acts 23:8 in this light). In support of the alternate explanation is the fact that a separate angel ("the angel of the Lord," not "Peter's angel" per se), had just played a prominent role in the story (cf. v. 7-10). But the events involving the angel were putatively not known to the disciples, so it would be strange for them to allude to this angel. The other relevant fact is the literary parallelism between the story of Peter's arrest and release in ch. 12 of Acts and the story of Jesus' arrest, execution, and resurrection in Luke and in related gospels (cf. my post on this). The text about Peter's appearance to Mary in Acts 12:15 corresponds to the appearance to a (different) Mary in Luke 24:36-43 and John 20:14. It is interesting that here Luke mentions only an angel's appearance to Mary (an angelophany) while John mentions an actual appearance to Mary of the risen Jesus (a christophany). Since Acts stands closer to Luke than John, this may have some implications on the verse in question. But there is also a strong resemblence in the account of Jesus' appearance to his disciples in Luke 24:36-39. Here, when Jesus approaches his disciples, they initially misapprehend him as a disembodied spiritual being, as a pneuma "spirit, ghost" (v. 37). Then Jesus corrects them, explaining that it was really him in the flesh (v. 38-39). Similarly, in Acts 12:15, the disciples initially misapprehend Peter as an "angel", and in v. 16-17 he corrects them, informing them of his escape from prison.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Note also the additional parallel:

    "It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense" (Luke 24:10-11). //

    "A servant girl named Rhoda came to answer the door. When she recognized Peter's voice, she was so overjoyed she ran back without opening it and exclaimed, 'Peter is at the door!' 'You're out of your mind,' they told her" (Acts 12:13-15).

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Greetings:

    The Society's explanation is not out of harmony with what other commentators have said about this passage.

    Coffman's NT:

    It is his angel ...
    This verse proves that in the apostolic church the Christians believed that every person has a guardian angel; but it is uncertain what deductions should be made from this fact. Jesus apparently justified such a view by his reference to the angels of little children in Matthew 18:10, as being angels of the highest rank. See in my Commentary on Matthew, under Matt. 18:10 , and in my Commentary on Hebrews, Heb. 1:14. The thinking of those who said this seems to be that "Since Herod has already killed Peter, it must be his personal angel who is knocking at the gate."

    Peter kept on knocking, however; and the stunned hearers finally let him in.

    Excerpt from Henry Complete:

    She ran in, and probably went up to an upper room where they were together, and told them that Peter was certainly at the gate, though she had not courage enough to open the gate, for fear she should be deceived, and it should be the enemy. But, when she spoke of Peter?s being there, they said, "Thou art mad; it is impossible it should be he, for he is in prison.?? Sometimes that which we most earnestly wish for we are most backward to believe, because we are afraid of imposing upon ourselves, as the disciples, who, when Christ had risen, believed not for joy. However, she stood to it that it was he. Then said they, It is his angel, v. 15. First, "It is a messenger from him, that makes use of his name;?? so some take it; angelos often signifies no more than a messenger. It is used of John?s messengers (Lu. 7:24, 27), of Christ?s, Lu. 9:52. When the damsel was confident it was Peter, because she knew his voice, they thought it was because he that stood at the door had called himself Peter, and therefore offer this solution of the difficulty, "It is one that comes with an errand from him, and thou didst mistake as if it had been he himself.?? Dr. Hammond thinks this the easiest way of understanding it. Secondly, "It is his guardian angel, or some other angel that has assumed his shape and voice, and stands at the gate in his resemblance.?? Some think that they supposed his angel to appear as a presage of his death approaching; and this agrees with a notion which the vulgar have, that sometimes before persons have died their ward has been seen, that is, some spirit exactly in their likeness for countenance and dress, when they themselves have been at the same time in some other place; they call it their ward, that is, their angel, who is their guard. If so, they concluded this an ill omen, that their prayers were denied, and that the language of the apparition was, "Let it suffice you, Peter must die, say no more of that matter.?? And, if we understand it so, it only proves that they had then such an opinion of a man?s ward being seen a little before his death, but does not prove that there is such a thing. Others think they took this to be an angel from heaven, sent to bring them a grant to their prayers. But why should they imagine that angel to assume the voice and shape of Peter, when we find not any thing like it in the appearance of angels? Perhaps they herein spoke the language of the Jews, who had a fond conceit that every good man has a particular tutelar angel, that has the charge of him, and sometimes personates him. the heathen called it a good genius, that attended a man; but, since no other scripture speaks of such a thing, this alone is too weak to bear the weight of such a doctrine. We are sure that the angels are ministering spirits for the good of the heirs of salvation, that they have a charge concerning them, and pitch their tents round about them; and we need not be solicitous that every particular saint should have his guardian angel, when we are assured he has a guard of angels. (5.) At length they let him in (v. 16): He continued knocking though they delayed to open to him, and at last they admitted him. The iron gate which opposed his enlargement opened of itself, without so much as once knocking at it; but the door of his friend?s house that was to welcome him does not open of its own accord, but must be knocked at, long knocked at; lest Peter should be puffed up by the honours which the angel did him, he meets with this mortification, by a seeming slight which his friends put upon him. But, when they saw him, they were astonished, were filled with wonder and joy in him, as much as they were but just now with sorrow and fear concerning him. It was both surprising and pleasing to them in the highest degree. (6.) Peter gave them an account of his deliverance. When he came to the company that were gathered together with so much zeal to pray for him, they gathered about him with no less zeal to congratulate him on his deliverance; and herein they were so noisy that when Peter himself begged them to consider what peril he was yet in, if they should be overheard, he could not make them hear him, but was forced to beckon to them with the hand to hold their peace, and had much ado thereby to command silence, while he declared unto them how the Lord Jesus had by an angel brought him out of prison; and it is very likely, having found them praying for his deliverance, he did not part with them till he and they had together solemnly given thanks to God for his enlargement; or, if he could not stay to do it, it is probable they staid together to do it; for what is won by prayer must be worn with praise; and God must always have the glory of that which we have the comfort of. When David declares what God had done for his soul, he blesses God who had not turned away his prayer, Ps. 66:16, 20.

    Wesley:

    AC 12:15 They said, Thou art mad - As we say, Sure you are not in your senses to talk so. It is his angel - It was a common opinion among the Jews, that every man had his particular guardian angel, who frequently assumed both his shape and voice. But this is a point on which the Scriptures are silent.

    People?s NT:

    AC 12:13 13-17. A damsel came to hearken. It was in the night, and they were Christians. The knocker might be an enemy or a friend. The damsel, a maid-servant, had charge of the door. When she knew Peter's voice. In answer to her question who might be at the door. Instead of opening, in her gladness, she flew to tell the good news, a touch of nature. It is his angel. The Jews held that every one had his guardian angel, and they thought his angel had assumed Peter's voice. A mistake, and Luke does not say whether the idea on which it was based is true or not. They were astonished. The

    But Notice how Gill NT has a slightly different view:

    it is his angel;
    not his tutelar or guardian angel, everyone having, as some think, a particular angel to attend him; whereas sometimes one angel attends many persons, and sometimes many angels encamp about, and are a guard to a single saint; nor did they think it was an angel sent to give notice of his death, as some persons, by one means or another, have had previous notices of the death of their friends; but rather, that it was an angel in Peter's shape, who had something to communicate: and this agrees with the notions of the Jews, who think that angels do assume the shapes of men on certain occasions: so they say , when Moses was in danger in Pharaoh's court, God sent Michael, the prince of the host of heaven, "in the shape of an executioner"; who brought him at once out of Egypt, and set him at the border of it, the distance of three days journey: Bar Kaphra says , an angel descended (
    hvm twmdb) , "in the likeness of Moses", and caused him to flee, and they thought the angel had been Moses: and so it is elsewhere said , that an angel descended "in the likeness of Solomon", sitting upon his throne: there are some who think, that the sense of the brethren praying for Peter, was not that it was an angel, a celestial spirit, but a messenger sent by Peter from the prison on some errand: who represented him, or mentioning his name, the damsel took him for Peter himself. Beza's ancient copy reads, "then said they unto her, perhaps it is his angel", and so the Syriac version.

    ------

    I just want to add my comments. As you can see there are two views. The one most favoured being that they thought it to be Peter's guardian angels as some of the Jews may have believed. Luke is just recording (after the fact) what was reportedly said without commenting upon the superstition/belief itself. That seems to be the Society's view too.

    The second minority view is what Gill is up to and I think he is on the right trail. We must remember that the aramaic word for Angel basically means "messenger" so it is very possible that the persons thought that the person knocking was a messenger from Peter from prison and it is only in the later translations into Latin and Greek that the terms for Angel were used as it is these terms that are present in the oldest manuscripts that are extant. But it may not have been so originally with Luke's autograph, the word may have been messenger. Only when it came very shortly to be translated into the word for Angel did then the need to find some particular explanation like that they might have believed in Guardian Angels, etc. arise out of what may have been just a very innocuous and rather pedestrian passage.

    -Eduardo

    PS: Oh and by the way in case it wasn't obvious from the above your assertion/theory that the disciples "OBVIOUSLY thought that persons went to heaven and became angels" is wrong.

  • eye 23
    eye 23

    thanks for the interesting reading...so it seems that the WTBTS are not alone in this thinking which is interesting. still, *I* believe that it was still a statement and everything else is theory.

    In the original post I said ..'in my mind' so when I said obviously I was talking about myself i.e it's obvious to me. so to tell me I'm wrong in my own thinking and reasoning based on a theory is a bit much!

    I asked if anyone else thought it was miss matched reasoning and the replies that others had the same theory as the wtbts was interesting and also that others have said they themselves think it to be correct was interesting and respected because everyone has a right to their own personal belief system.

    As I say, I *personally* believe that they made a statement i.e it is peters angel; everything else, in my mind is theory regardless of how wide spread that theory was at the time.

    a simple thought on what your personal thoughts were would have been enough without the personal attack on my thinking ability.......thankyou very much!

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Are there any commentators (I couldn't find one) that support the idea that those in the house thought it was Peter's spirit that was at the door and not just a run of the mill guardian angel?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Imo the inner logic of the story (one of the best in the NT as far as narrative quality is concerned, and structurally parallel to resurrection stories as Leolaia pointed out) strongly suggests that "angel" is here used as equivalent to "ghost" (Mark 6:39) or "spirit" (Luke 24:37ff) even though this use of "angel" is not attested anywhere else in Judaism or Christianity afaik. This needs not reflect a general religious belief or linguistic usage: it might be simply the author's creation and his own conception of Jewish-Christian beliefs (cf. Luke 20:36; 24:23; Acts 6:15; 23:9).

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Eye,

    I am not sure what New Age Relativist world you are living in. But the notion that because a belief is PERSONALLY held it should be considered valid or at least not critiqued or called invalid is simply irrational and illogical.

    People can hold any belief that they want of course. You can believe 2+2=5 if you like. It doesn't make your belief correct. In fact your belief would be entirely wrong.

    Your belief that the bible scripture indicates that they believed that Peter went to Heaven and were referring to his post-mortem angelic self is wrong, mistaken, an errant conclusion, etc. That's it, accept it or don't.

    If you persist in it after being shown the facts or after being presented with rational logic or explanation that shows that your theory/thinking was wrong then that is of course your perogative. But you shouldn't chafe under any criticism.

    -Eduardo

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    I must admit that I smirked at this article. The reasoning is , well, thin to say the least. For an organisation that denies that humans become angels after death, and that we have guardiam angels, this was always going to be tricky. Unless they say that those inside the house were totally off the wall in their statement, the WTS does not really have an answer.. But if the view was wrong, why include it in the Bible?

    Interestingly, Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible renders the word ag'ge-los ("angel") as "messenger." It appears that there was a belief among some Jews that each servant of God had his own angel - in effect, a "guardian angel." Of course, this view is not directly taught in God's Word. Still, it is possible that when the disciples said, "It is his angel," they were assuming that an angelic messenger representing Peter stood at the gate.

    Watchtower speak meaning "We really dont know but we have to say something".....incidentally that maxim was told us at an elders school once by an instructor who had done a spell in Bethel answering readers letters

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