Should Intelligent Design be taught in schools? (page 6)

zen nudist

if by intelligent design they mean to show how an intelligent being can put something together, perhaps this would be ok...but if they mean that no known answer fits, that is not intelligent design, that is no clue, no theory, no explanation...and does not default to intelligence.

Qcmbr

GBL - I think we have the idea of God completely wrong - He isn't there to step in and stop the natural process that is death. Death needs to be here so we can move onto the next phase of existence so God isn't some guy in blue spandex and red underwear averting disasters. God knows when our time is up and when its not. I know of several instances where people have had unusual things happen to them that have saved their lives - there are certainly biblical records to support the notion that sometimes God will step in.

The first LDS prophet got shot - where was God? - waiting for him. This world isn't paradise - its a form of spiritual death in that we are separated from God - after gaining our unique individual experiences here its just not feasible to expect God to hold us back. They said similar things to Jesus when He was on the cross - if youve got the power why don't you save yourself..

The arguement could carry on forever - if God intervenes to stop death then He has to stop killing diseases, after that everyone would whinge that He was unfair since He lets people get injured or get colds - soon we are back to the Garden of Eden and we can never meet God because of the fall - we are stuck as we are -

Though death sucks I think staying here would suck even more.

Daunt

Qcmbr give us some facts. Me saying that the new pope is an alien from space is just as valid as your claims. Infact maybe more plausible taking into account all the possible planets in the universe and the fact that the new pope does exist.

Qcmbr

Are you meaning facts for God stepping in at times? I never said their were facts - just that the bible supported the notion (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego - dunno if those names are right) - I think we all know of people who have survived things - not saying they are God stepping in just that the bible does say sometimes it happens.

tetrapod.sapien

to get the thread back on track, Qcmbr, perhaps you can start by answering dave's question, which i reproduce here:

What would an ID course consist of?

Qcmbr

As I pointed out quite a few posts ago I said it doesn't need to be a long course just enough to introduce it as another option: Things to look at -

Expansion rates of the universe and the cosmological constant.
Location of the earth in relation to the sun and moon - required for life as we know it.
The difficult that science has in recreating life itself.
The sheer complexity of proteins and cells - the way they operate in harmony and when they are mutated slightly they often cause huge problems - this means evolution has to navigate a minefield as it mutates its way through the dna without killing the organism.
Candidates for intelligent design - God / Life on other planets. Look at size of universe and current astronomical estimates on our relationship with the cosmos. Compare with ideas of life being seeded onto world from comets.
Look at how man is becoming an intelligent designer with cloning/ domestication and breeding / exploration of the world and what would need to be done to make one habitable.
Discuss how some parts of the human condition are not always explainable by mechanistic processes - such as faith, altruism, love, hatred etc.. move onto what does it mean to be intelligent.
Briefly discuss religious intelligent design concepts (creation is mentioned in many cultures)
Discuss the difference between mechanical process (crystal formation, snowflakes and other self organising systems) and the replicability of life - procreation is an incredible process that uses several mechanical methods combined into a functioning whole.)
The issues of species appearing not evolving in the fossil record, the issue of fossils reappearing as live animals today - the possibility that something else is aiding lifes progress.

I could go on but its past midnoght - I've got enough material there for a teacher to cover masses of scientific , provable things without 'preaching' ID but just suggesting that the facts also fit another scenario.

Daunt

(edited out)

tetrapod.sapien

Qcmbr, some of that stuff doesn't belong in a science class, and the rest of it is touched on in science classes already. the only difference is that the science teacher is not saying to the class:

"and so you see class, science cannot explain everything yet. therefore, let's talk about god for a few minutes shall we?". since ID is not a valid scientific theory (see my post above) and it introduces "god" as an explanation (see occam's razor), it does not belong in science classes. perhaps it belongs in religious studies or philosphy?

AlmostAtheist

>> Expansion rates of the universe and the cosmological constant.
>> Location of the earth in relation to the sun and moon
>> - required for life as we know it.
>> The sheer complexity of proteins and cells
>> Discuss how some parts of the human condition are not always
>> explainable by mechanistic processes - such as faith,
>> altruism, love, hatred etc.. move onto what does it mean
>> to be intelligent.
>> Discuss the difference between mechanical process and the
>> replicability of life - procreation is an incredible process

The above are all the same point, "Life and the universe are complex". If ID wants to postulate that all complex things had to have been intelligently designed, then that's fine. But those five examples are together one point.

>> The difficult that science has in recreating life itself.
>> The issues of species appearing not evolving in the fossil
>> record, the issue of fossils reappearing as live
>> animals today

I don't understand what point this makes in support of ID.

>> the possibility that something else is aiding lifes progress.

Anything's possible, we can't teach all possible things to our children.

>> The sheer complexity of proteins and cells - the way they
>> operate in harmony and when they are mutated slightly
>> they often cause huge problems - this means evolution
>> has to navigate a minefield as it mutates its way
>> through the dna without killing the organism.

This would be covered in the evolution course. It would be explained that most mutations don't benefit the creature, and instead lead to its death or failure to reproduce. Again, this doesn't support ID.

>> Candidates for intelligent design - God / Life on other planets.

Again, anything's possible, we can't teach all possible things to our children.

>> Look at how man is becoming an intelligent designer with
>> cloning/ domestication and breeding / exploration of
>> the world and what would need to be done to make one habitable.

How does this support the idea of ID?

>> Briefly discuss religious intelligent design concepts
>> (creation is mentioned in many cultures)

I don't think a science class would be the right place to discuss all the myths of the world. Do you? If so, why?

Thanks for presenting these, I hope you don'y mind discussing them.

Dave

EvilForce

The first LDS prophet got shot - where was God? - waiting for him. This world isn't paradise - its a form of spiritual death in that we are separated from God - after gaining our unique individual experiences here its just not feasible to expect God to hold us back. They said similar things to Jesus when He was on the cross - if youve got the power why don't you save yourself..

The arguement could carry on forever - if God intervenes to stop death then He has to stop killing diseases, after that everyone would whinge that He was unfair since He lets people get injured or get colds - soon we are back to the Garden of Eden and we can never meet God because of the fall - we are stuck as we are -

Though death sucks I think staying here would suck even more.

Religion and science DO NOT MIX!!!!

Should Intelligent Design be taught in schools?

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