WT 1/1/05 Question From Readers

TheListener

Okay I read this QFR but missed an interesting point (I think) until the 4/15/05 WT Do You Remember section which references the 1/1/5 QFR.

WT 1/1/05 QFR: Does Stephen's exclamation at Acts 7:59 indicate that prayers should be directed to Jesus?

Par. 5 says this: "But, seeing the resurrected Jesus in vision, Stephen apparently felt free to appeal to him directly, saying "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Stephen knew that Jesus had been given authority to raise the dead. (John 5: 27-29) He therefore asked Jesus to safeguard his spirit, or life force, until the day when Jesus would raise him to immortal life in the heavens.

WT 4/15/05 Do You Remember?

Bullet point #2: Does Acts 7:59 mean that Stephen prayed to Jesus?

[last sentence only] - So, Stephen asked, or appealed, to Jesus to safeguard his life force until the resurrection.

I have some questions:

1. Stephen didn't pray to God but talked with Jesus. However, prayers to God are like conversations (thus talking). This reminds me of the recent David and the showbread QFR. Yes, he did it but he didn't do it and don't you do it either.

2. I don't remember the society using the term "life force or spirit" in connection with Stephen before. I can't check my CD as stealthily as I used to. Can someone check this out?

TheListener

Oh maaaaaaaaan, doesn't anyone have even one comment about this thread. You are leaving me hangin' here.

Narkissos

OK, little to say here.

1. I think the WT has a comparatively strong point about "praying to Jesus": the NT offers only indirect and debatable evidence, and I can't think of any example of prayers to Jesus in old Church liturgy: the testimony of Pliny about Christians "singing to Christ as to a god" (http://www.bible-researcher.com/persecution.html#pliny) does not exactly refer to prayer, and in any case it is an outsider's assessment. Perhaps there are marginal examples in the liturgy, but the overwhelming pattern is praying to the Father through (in the name of) the Son. Praying to the Son (or the Holy Spirit) is mostly a modern Evangelical practice.

The context of a vision (possibly in Acts 7, more clearly in Revelation) does change the perspective. In apocalypses the seer regularly talks with angels, which he would not pray outside of the visional frame.

2. I checked and did not find any reference, which surprises me because "spirit = life force" is a customary WT equation...

A Paduan

The wt are speaking a different language (ie. different word meanings), but insist that they are speaking your language - it's central to their method of subterfuge and success in conveying lies.

pray - to ask, request, entreat, ask earnestly or beg

"He therefore asked Jesus to safeguard his spirit, or life force "

- a focused, important request to Jesus - using shorter words he 'prayed'

I pray you, do not believe their crud and crapology

TheListener

Paduan,

Don't worry. Read my previous posts. I'm ok (I think).

I just found it interesting that the WTS used spirit and didn't explain that it would only be the memory of Stephen that Jesus would keep in mind until he was crowned king in 1914. His spirit wouldn't have been resurrected until then.

A Paduan

It appears that the jws have adopted another meaning for the word pray (other than ask, touch base with, request, beseech, ask earnestly etc.) - their meaning for the word is more like, "Ask the one you call God", carrying with it a certain punishable requirement of duty for correct identification - a whole other meaning.

I have long held the belief that much of jwism's success in confusing (dividing) and subsequent influence (conquering) lies in the use of substituted meanings for single words.

envy (displeased by good for another)............ jw = covet
jealous (guarded concern for)........................jw = envy
worship (active adoration)............................jw = pay homage
pray (ask, request, beseech)........................jw = call someone a God

Just another in the babylonian list of confusion.

Justin

narkissos,

With regard to NT evidence for praying to Jesus, I think the expression 'calling upon the name of' Jesus or the Lord is a primary indicator.

1 Cor. 1:2 is addressed to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." This is language borrowed from the OT with reference to calling upon the name of YHWH. (Compare Gen. 12:8) Also in this category is Romans 10:13, quoting from Joel 2:32 - "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." At his baptism (according to Acts) Paul was instructed to "wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16) The "Lord" here would appear to be Jesus, as Paul was turning to Jesus and was already a worshipper of YHWH.

All this is not to say that the texts support fourth century trinitarianism, and we are not told how praying to Jesus was integrated into the worship of the Father. Do you have an alternative explanation?

Narkissos

Justin,

Good point. The fact that epikalesthai to onoma (etc.) is a regular LXX equivalent of qr' beshem, which often involves prayer, is certainly meaningful.

However the fact remains that those who are described as "calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus" in the NT are usually shown praying the Father in the name of Jesus.

This might indicate a nuance other than prayer for epikalesthai in the NT, and I would suggest it is mostly a legal one: epikalesthai is also the verb for the "appeal to Caesar" (Acts 25:11f,21,25; 26:32; 28:19; cf. 2 Corinthians 1:23: "I call on God as witness," which is not exactly prayer). So "calling upon the name of Jesus" might imply something like "calling on the judgement, testimony, assistance or patronage of Jesus," before God and men.

Now it is all the more interesting that Stephen's appeal to Jesus in Acts 7:59 (context of trial and execution) precisely uses epikalesthai, not the more usual verbs for "praying".

TheListener

Narkissos, Justin,

Since Stephen was appealing to Jesus to do something, such as keep his spirit or life force, that goes to show how important Jesus is in our salvation. Rather than relegate him to a marginal role as pure a mediator this puts him in the responsible position of acting on God's behalf.

In another scripture Jesus says ask for anything in my father's name and I will do it (give it?). This again shows that Jesus truly has the power to act as he sees fit. As long as it fits within the overall plan of God.

It seems then that we could talk to Jesus, ask him to help us, confide in him, etc. based on his place in God's organization. As long as we don't actually pray to him. It seems like this is a fine line.

I was more interested in the fact that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit [pneuma]. If Stephen understood that his spirit would be extinguished upon death and be in a sleeplike state why would he say that?

Honesty

So what's wrong with praying to Jesus since all power in heaven and on earth have been given to Him? Oh yeah, I forgot, the apostate Governing Body of Joe Hoba's Witnesses will DF anyone who admits to it. Wonder why?

WT 1/1/05 Question From Readers

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