Witch of Endor

by TheListener 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  TheListener

  Recently 1 Samuel chapter 28 was covered at the hall. Especially verse 19:

  KJV 1 Sam. 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines : and to morrow [shalt] thou and thy sons [be] with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines .

  There are very few WT references to the Witch of Endor that actually discuss whether she was right or not in her predictions (or Samuel's predictions).

  One article, and the brother giving our bible highlights dwelt on this for some time stated that the witch (or Samuel) was wrong in her predictions.

  Samuel predicted that:

  1. Saul and his sons would die. - I disagree. WT says one of Saul's sons didn't die. All Saul's sons that were involved in the war (3 out of 4) did die. Only Ishboseth survived and he wasn't apparently a part of the battle. DEAD SAMUEL SEEMS RIGHT

  2. That Saul would be delivered into the hands of the Philistines. WT says that Saul fell on his own sword thus not killed by Philistines. That seems really weak. He died fighting the Philistines, period. SAMUEL WAS RIGHT.

  3. That this would happen tomorrow. WT says it didn't happen the next calendar day. This is where I've run into trouble. The Hebrew word [to morrow] - Machar (Strong's 4279) seems to be malleable enough to mean next calendar day or some future day. The dictionary says it usually means the next calendar day when it is used adverbially. I can't figure out what use it has in Isaiah 28:19 - SAMUEL COULD BE RIGHT.

  I've researched this quite a bit and would like to hear others comments.
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  Narkissos

  Question about # 3: what is the WT basis for saying that Saul didn't die the next day (I don't remember seeing this argument before)? Obviously chapters 29--30 are a parallel narrative, and chapter 31 is the direct continuation of chapter 28.
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  TheListener

  Narkissos,

  You wrote:Obviously chapters 29--30 are a parallel narrative, and chapter 31 is the direct continuation of chapter 28.

  I didn't know that. I knew that when I read the chapters it didn't flow very well. I plan on re-reading the chapters with your comment in mind. Thanks. I will also review my WT library to see if they mention the parallel accounts. If what you're saying is correct it may be that it did happen the next day or it may be impossible to tell. This is very exciting.

  About the WT reference I'm sorry that I can't check my cd until this evening. If no one else answers I will post the reference I found tomorrow (machar).

  I really appreciate the opportunity to research biblical information without preconceived notions of what I must believe.
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  Narkissos

  TL,

  You had me look into it, and that's hilarious:

  WT 1955 9/15:

  Whether it was the next day, or "tomorrow," that the Israelite army were delivered to the Philistines in defeat and Saul and his sons with him on the battlefield died, the Bible account does not plainly show.

  WT 1964 8/15:

  Not "tomorrow," as the demon incorrectly says, but a number of days later King Saul and three, not all, of his sons fall in battle at Mount Gilboa.

  All Scripture... (1990), 1 Samuel:

  However, "Samuel" has no comforting message for the king. Tomorrow he will die, and true to Jehovah?s words, the kingdom will be taken from him.

  rotfletc.
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  AlmostAtheist

  But when God says to Adam "In the day you eat from it, you will surely die" and it doesn't happen that day, that's ok?

  Ya gotta love the Watchtower...
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  TheListener

  Hey good research Narkissos.

  Sooooooo the WTS isn't really sure which way to go on this either. I think it's funny that if they don't know for sure they'll err on the side of Samuel was dead wrong (pun intended). Someone in the writing dept. read the 1955 quote and freaked out and figured they better change it. If you're gonna be wrong and dogmatic at least be wrong and dogmatic in support of your point.

  For me it's just another example of the WTS's scholarly deceit. They have people's complete trust. People who will go and preach this stuff knowing that whatever the WTS says is totally true and researched. This is exactly the kind of dishonest or at least misleading information I am storing up for some future use. Perhaps the only use is to burn it.
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  TheListener

  AA,

  The only difference, I think, is that when God told Adam he would die in a day he used the Hebrew word Yowm which can be a 24 hour period or an indefinite period of time. Like saying 'in my father's day'. Whereas the Hebrew word used in 1 Samuel is Machar which means tomorrow or someday after today.

  This is as clear as mud.
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  Kilik

  [img]http://essenes.net/ng.jpg[/img]
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  Kilik

  http://essenes.net/ng.jpg
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  AlmostAtheist

  The only difference, I think, is that when God told Adam he would die in a day he used the Hebrew word Yowm which can be a 24 hour period or an indefinite period of time. Like saying 'in my father's day'. Whereas the Hebrew word used in 1 Samuel is Machar which means tomorrow or someday after today.

  I'd buy that's a valid point.

  Dave of the "Knows Hebrew like the back of Tom Selleck's hand" class