144,000 going to heaven, based on what??

by truth_about_the_truth 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • truth_about_the_truth
    truth_about_the_truth

    Let's face it, most JW's believe that there is CLEAR biblical evidence that shows that only 144K will go to heaven and rule as kings during the 1000 yr reign. When examining this topic without the aid of anything but the Bible itself, it paints quite a different picture. You would need to make some blind assumptions to come to the WT conclusion regarding this topic.

    JWs take it for granted this scripture Rev. 14:1-3:

    1: Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
    2: And I heard a voice from heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; the voice I heard was like the sound of harpers playing on their harps,
    3: and they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth.

    proves that this number of ppl, 144K, are the ONLY ones that will go to heaven.

    Here's the thing. Where does it mention in the context of this scripture that they are exclusively heaven bound???

    Basically there is no link between the scripture above and the following scriptures which speak of a heavenly resurrection:

    1 Thess 4:16-17

    16: For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first;
    17: then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    Phill 3:20-21

    20: But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
    21: who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

    1 Cor 15:42-55

    42: So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
    43: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
    44: It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
    45: Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    46: But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
    47: The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
    48: As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
    49: Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
    50: I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
    51: Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
    53: For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
    54: When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
    55: "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?"

    Also, JWs automatically link the 144,000 with this scripture below in proving that they are this is the set number that will rule as kings and priests:

    Rev. 20:4-6

    4: Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5: The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
    6: Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Again, WHERE IS THE LINK to the 144K mentioned in Rev 14?

    Another scripture taking about a first resurrection 1 Cor 15:21-23

    21: For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
    22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23: But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    Doesn't it sound like all of the faithful will take part in the first resurrection WITHOUT A SET NUMBER?

    The only way you can come up with the JW doctrine regarding the 144K is to have a WT article "fill in the gaps" for you.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    If I remember correctly, the WTS backed itself into a corner and the "great crowd" doctrine is how they responded.

    Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the WTS originally taught that there would be no more than 144,000 JWs. Around the 1930's they started going well over the 144,000 mark and had to do something, so in a 1935 convention they announced the new "great crowd" vs "144,000" teaching and told everyone that most of the people in the audience were of the "great crowd".

    As usual, "new light" is used to cover over another error that became too big to ignore.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    : Doesn't it sound like all of the faithful will take part in the first resurrection WITHOUT A SET NUMBER?

    yes, it does. nice research, thanks.

  • Markfromcali
    Markfromcali

    Am I the only one that's thinking 'bottles of beer on the wall'...?

    '.. and if one of the annointed should fall, there will be 143,999 ...'

  • Terry
    Terry

    Last year I contacted a local fellow with the Millennial Dawn (International Bible Students) to catch a glimpse of how the Russellites might have believed.

    It was interesting.

    They have stayed "true" to the teachings of C.T.Russell and still publish Studies in the Scirptures.

    Theirs is truly a little flock of the faithful.

    How sad what has come of the mainstream Watchtower Society.

    But, alas! Both have wasted their lives on mere puffery.

    T.

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    Regardless, the number 144,000 is absolutely symbolic. Of what? Ask John. It is certain that the quacks in Brooklyn don't know.

    By their numerology it is a meaningful number, however.

    12 groups of 12,000 (easily demonstrable from Revelation 7:5-8)

    How do you get 12,000 using Revelation numerology? Simple.

    Either (3·4)·(10·10·10) or (12)·(10·10·10) or (6·2)·(10·10·10). We can immediately rule out the 6 times 2 approach. What is left? Whichever way you choose, 10 to the third remains.

    What does it mean, JWs?

    [Chart on page 19]
    Symbolic
    Numbers in RevelationNumber Symbolic Meaning
    2 Signifies solidly confirming a matter. (Revelation 11:3, 4; compare Deuteronomy 17:6.)
    3 Denotes emphasis. Also indicates intensity. (Revelation 4:8; 8:13; 16:13, 19)
    4 Signifies universalness or foursquareness in symmetry. (Revelation 4:6; 7:1, 2; 9:14; 20:8; 21:16)
    6 Signifies imperfection, something not normal, monstrous. (Revelation 13:18; compare 2 Samuel 21:20.)
    7 Signifies divinely determined completeness, as to Jehovah?s purposes or to Satan?s. (Revelation 1:4, 12, 16; 4:5; 5:1, 6; 10:3, 4; 12:3)
    10 Signifies allness or completeness in a physical way, as to things on earth. (Revelation 2:10; 12:3; 13:1; 17:3, 12, 16)
    12 Signifies a divinely constituted organization either in the heavens or on the earth. (Revelation 7:5-8; 12:1; 21:12, 16; 22:2)
    24 Signifies Jehovah?s abundant (doubled) organizational arrangement. (Revelation 4:4)

    Hm. Ten mean allness or completeness as to things on the earth? No wonder this had to be a literal number. Otherwise someone might get the idea that more than 144,000 were going to heaven. More on the order of everyone God decided at the time. Of course, the 12 sets of 12,000 are symbolic, although they are constituents of the 144,000 and you can't have one without the other.

    Sheez! I need an aspirin.

  • New Worldly Translation
    New Worldly Translation

    I agree Oldsoul that the number must be symbolic. In fact it's weird reasoning by the JW's to think it's literal after taking everything else in Revelation as symbolic.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    *** Rbi8 Revelation 7:1-12 ***
    7 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."
    4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
    out of the tribe of Reu'ben twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
    6 out of the tribe of Ash'er twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Naph'ta·li twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Ma·nas'seh twelve thousand;
    7 out of the tribe of Sim'e·on twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Le'vi twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Is'sa·char twelve thousand;
    8 out of the tribe of Zeb'u·lun twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.
    9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb."
    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen."

    The WTBTS is so confused that to even suggest the 144,000 is a literal number shows their spiritual condition as drunkards.

    Why is 144,000 a literal number when there was no tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Ephraim is not listed in the account at Rev. 7:1-12?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    A preterist view of Revelation could mean that "John" thought it was a literal number of "spiritual Israel", due to the martyrdom's of that time. After all, the end of the world was supposed to be any minute, right?

    Not my own first choice of interpretation, but one possibility.

  • bennyk
    bennyk

    The 1995 WT refutes their own WTS doctrine re: only 144 000 going to heaven.

    wt95 08/01 page 11 paragraph 8:

    8 When Israel rejected and killed His Son, Jesus Christ, God finally rejected her. So no longer was that Jewish nation a figurative wife to Him, nor was He the Father and Teacher of her wayward sons. (Matt. 23: 37,38) However, Israel was only a typical, or symbolic, wife. The apostle Paul quoted Isaiah 54: 1, which speaks of a "barren woman" who is different and distinct from "the woman with the husbandly owner," the nation of natural Israel. Paul reveals that anointed Christians are children of the "barren woman," whom he calls "Jerusalem above." This antitypical figurative woman consists of God's heavenly organization of spirit creatures. -- Galatians 4: 26,27. (end of quote).

    The scripture thus indicates (using the WTS' own interpretation of the 'women') that the number of anointed Christians exceeds that of fleshly Israel. The cumulative number of natural Israelites between the Exodus and the coming of Christ Jesus was in the many tens of millions; therefore, many more than 144 000 are spirit-anointed Christians.

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