I am coming from a complete belief system. The relationship with God that society has determines what it does. When the religious God is gone then so are morals (they are a religious concept) and the possibility that we are more than brute animals. We are not special in any way shape or form - we are just some genes that got a really good advantage with our big brains - all the rest of life on this planet is just a set of competing genes - our advantage suggests we should genetically alter all lower 'failed' genetic collections to satisfy the propagation of our genetic material.
Religion is not a panacea for all ills but its the only thing I have ever seen that prevents society returning to a Lord of the Flies scenario - when the brute carnal side of our nature decides to act in a animalistic way we get war (don't be fooled by thinking religion caused it - its all just an excuse to excert power and domination on someone else - just as genetics suggests we should), rape, bullies, emotional knee jerk jingoistic decisions and the crowd follows baying for blood. Bleuh. Give me peaceful gentle contemplation of eternity, God, Tao, Krishna, Love thy neighbour, honour thy wife etc..
Will humanity EVER outgrow God?
by nicolaou 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
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nicolaou
All the things that hold families together are given by religion. - An odd statement to find on a website where so many are suffering from broken families because of a religion. -
Without a belief in God there would be no such concept as marriage (it becomes a bit of paper) - So? - indeed we see secular society broadening the definition of marriage to include gays - surely a good thing if marriage has any value in cementing and strengthening long term commitments - and at the same time downgrading it from a promise made in the presence of God's representatives - you are making unproved assumptions that are not universally held, that there is a God and that he has represenatatives - to a civil union merely for legal purposes of division of assets. Children are not given the privilege of married parents as a right - many children would not consider themselves priveliged to have the parents that they do, simply being married provides no guarantee that a man & woman will make good parents any more than being unmarried is an indicator of poor parenting - (the normal condition under religious society) and instead we see schools / government and fringe liberals pushing the agenda of disparate families tied by no more than some shared dna and a dalliance with no commitment. Where to begin? I share your frustration at the sight of so many children who's parents showed so little commitment to stay together and provide a stable, nurturing environment for their children to grow up in. A happy, loving marriage most certainly provides that as does a happy, loving relationship between an unmarried but dedicated and commited couple.
Without a belief in God we are left with the concept of evolution as our God and the Nazis are proved right - a truly bizzare statement, and a little offensive to liken atheists to Nazi's - - a pure species where the mighty rule the weak becomes desirable because nature demands it. It becomes required to destroy the non-providers, the parasites , the physically unable because we are just animals and survival of the pack demands the cull of the burdensome. As soon as someone is born with an 'evolutionary advantage' (skin color, physical strength, good looks etc..) it becomes beholden to propogate their advantage as far and as wide as possible and to ensure those genes survive. - Do you not accept that an atheist can be altruistic? Benevolent? Kind? Philanthropic? Generous? Self-sacrificing? I'm sorry that you have such a low and dismissive opinion of individuals like myself but I will forgive you your ignorance. -
Without a belief in God we must go to war with other races because they are using resources that should be ours - every foreigner mining, burning, eating, living is a threat. Wars such as Iraq are necessary without God - if we are threatened for any reason we must strike when we are sure of winning. - Utterly absurd. Without a belief in God most wars would not have started in the first place. -
Without a belief in God their is no such thing as love, altruism, charity, sacrifice, committment, beauty etc.. these are all just a madness of the brain, chemical messages and chemical messages do not find soul mates, create art, write poetry or conceptualise feelings. We are all just brute animals suffering a collective madness that makes us thing we are unique individuals having feelings. - Atheism as a collective madness? Novel. -
Without a belief in God you are my enemy and I owe you nothing, you are not my brother and sister and when your back is turned I should destroy you as fast as possible until such a time as there are few enough humans so that I can consume without being dsturbed. - I believe in the Human Family and that all men & women are my 'brothers and sisters' irrespective of whichever deity they choose to follow, if they follow one at all -
The communists outgrew God - now the West is gladly following them. Well I'll stand with the few last belivers and watch the end. - okay then - -
doogie
Q:
i'm sorry, but i thought i should point out that your own faith-based love and altruism is shining through all too clearly.
these are some of the most closed-minded, prejudiced and offensive comments i've heard in awhile. if this is the attitude that follows faith, then i think i'll pass.
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trevor
Will humanity EVER outgrow God?
Everyone has a different concept of what God is. People constantly outgrow their concepts what God is. I feel that as time passes more people will reject the Bibles narrow minded view of a God made in mans image. Eastern religion has explained the concept of God better.
We will become more aware of our connectedness to all that life is and aware of how we are a part of something vast - an important part of what God is. We will stop viewing God as a separate entity when we stop viewing ourselves as separate entities.
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Abaddon
Qcmbr
If it ever does its finished. Every single society that got rich, proud , self sufficient has gone. We are next. Those societies that believe have the best chance of survival.
What, like traditional Islamic society, as typified by Muslims in, say, Iran? Or traditional Christian society, as typified in, say. Ireland a few decades ago.
LOL. The society in Ireland, although still one of the more religious in Europe, is far more secular than if was fifty years ago, and effectively is transitioning to a more secular society. Doesn't sound like that society (where belief was once almost universal) survived well.
Look at Iran; a secular democracy, forced into a rule of a puppet king installed by Western powers that revolted into a Islamic republic. That Islamic republic is at the gates of change; a virtually brand-new religious society about to flip back into secularism (as soon as the demographic trends allow, assuming no resurgance of Islam bolstered by more Western Imperialism). Seems belief didn't help that society survive.
Look Qcmbr, there is one thing that comes over in a lot of your posts. You assert things. You rarely prove them, and very often what you assert is contrary to fact when examined. Doesn't this bug you?
All the things that hold families together are given by religion.
Please DO read up on human sexual biology. Human families are kept together by evolved psychological and physiological features. There are other evolved psychological and physiological features that contribute to pulling familes apart, or at least which encourage persons of either gender to look for extra-relationship sex.
There same 'family negative' psychological and physiological features, such as human male sperm production, directly contradict, for example, Christian sexual guidlines. I can tell you abvout this in great detail but I fear being shown you're wrong wouldn't change your mind, as you don't base your beliefs on facts, but on faith.
Without a belief in God there would be no such concept as marriage (it becomes a bit of paper)
Balls. For a Christian you seem to have a woeful lack of faith in love. You also seem incapable of accepting that people are both capable of trsust and worthy of trust. Some Christians I know or know of have managed to have a more postiive view of their fellow man, like Jesus, for example.
indeed we see secular society broadening the definition of marriage to include gays and at the same time downgrading it from a promise made in the presence of God's representatives to a civil union merely for legal purposes of division of assets.
I suggest a more comprehensive knowledge of marriages roles in society down through history would be beneficial before you make pronouncements about this. Marriage was a breeding contract, often also used for inter-generational property transfer, strategic alliances, etc.
Children are not given the privilege of married parents as a right (the normal condition under religious society) and instead we see schools / government and fringe liberals pushing the agenda of disparate families tied by no more than some shared dna and a dalliance with no commitment.
Nice of you to talk down a large number of memebrs of modern society. Your cynical, judgemental, unloving attitude is either fuelled by arrogance or ignorance; most likely equal measures of BOTH. How do you have the gall to judge the level of commitment in people you don't know?
Without a belief in God we are left with the concept of evolution as our God and the Nazis are proved right - a pure species where the mighty rule the weak becomes desirable because nature demands it. It becomes required to destroy the non-providers, the parasites , the physically unable because we are just animals and survival of the pack demands the cull of the burdensome.
Before you make erroneous pronouncements on evolutionary biology I think it would be a good idea if you learnt about evolutionary biology.
Humans, in common with a few other species, care for the sick, and also care for the old. Fossil evidence would indicate that aged members of communities were helped to survive long past when they could have survived alone for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years before the present. Sick memembers of the community are normally only sick for a while; then they become productive again, which is why even the most 'primative' societies have encyclodeic knowledge of the medicinal uses of plants in their area.
This came about because those communities which cared for the elderly benefitted from their accumilated experience. Caring for the weak actually made the community stronger.
So you are 100% wrong; will this mean you change your opinion?
And what is this nonsense about a 'pure species'? Where in evlutionary biology does this concept crop up please? Well, you don't know anything about the subject (not that this stops you acting like you do), so I'll tell you. There is no such thing, in evolutionary biology, as a 'pure species'. In the contect you speak of it, a 'pure species' is moribund and unchnagable, thus doomed. There is a difference between science and half-arsed Nazi propoganda; I suggest you learn it.
I'd quite happily go into detail, but I really don't know if you actually want to learn. Most of your posts I read seem to be desperate assertions to bolster your worldview, none of which you are capable of backing-up in a discussion.
As soon as someone is born with an 'evolutionary advantage' (skin color, physical strength, good looks etc..) it becomes beholden to propogate their advantage as far and as wide as possible and to ensure those genes survive.
Again, actually read some books on a subject before trying to sound authoratative.
Without a belief in God we must go to war with other races because they are using resources that should be ours - every foreigner mining, burning, eating, living is a threat. Wars such as Iraq are necessary without God - if we are threatened for any reason we must strike when we are sure of winning.
Are you MAD? I can understand you being uninformed in some areas, but RELIGION has been behind many major conflicts down through history, and the largest conflict on Earth today is largely religious in its character.
Without a belief in God their is no such thing as love, altruism, charity, sacrifice, committment, beauty etc.. these are all just a madness of the brain, chemical messages and chemical messages do not find soul mates, create art, write poetry or conceptualise feelings. We are all just brute animals suffering a collective madness that makes us thing we are unique individuals having feelings.
Without a belief in God you are my enemy and I owe you nothing, you are not my brother and sister and when your back is turned I should destroy you as fast as possible until such a time as there are few enough humans so that I can consume without being dsturbed.
The communists outgrew God - now the West is gladly following them. Well I'll stand with the few last belivers and watch the end.
I can't believe the amount of hate you carry for your fellow man. How can you even think of people like this? It does make your sermon fall rather flat though. I would suggest you stop swallowing camels and start talking like you don't hold your fellow humans in contempt.
Sirona
I find it interesting that atheists seem to think they are more developed than believers, because they've "moved past" needing a "safety blanket".
Well, the 'safety blanket' accusation is just us poor naturalistic humanists trying to think of reasons why people keep believing in stuff you can't prove.
Normally if there is no evidence for something, it is accepted it doesn't exist. However, for a special sub-class of imaginary friends in the sky who will care for you in the next life, apparently different rules apply.
Whereas believers think that they are more developed than atheists because they've opened their minds to the possibilities of the spiritual realm and don't need everything to be proven by an experiment.
Sirona, my penis is 2 metres long. Would you be 'more developed' if you accepted that without experiment, or if you demanded proof before beliving it? You can insert 'gullable' in place of 'developed' if you like.
You happen to believe things you can't prove exist, and anyone who doesn't believe them is a closed minded individual because they won't believe in something you can't prove, naughty wicked naturalistic humanists that they are.
I, and others, happen not to believe in things that can't be proved satisfactorilly.
You can say stuff about us, but at the end of the day, all it is is someone who cannot prove what they believe is anything other than a fantasy being annoyed when other people point out that they can't prove what they believe in is real.
I can live with your annoyance.
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Sirona
Abaddon,
Sirona, my penis is 2 metres long. Would you be 'more developed' if you accepted that without experiment, or if you demanded proof before beliving it? You can insert 'gullable' in place of 'developed' if you like.
ROFLMAO! I believe you! No need for an experiment there...
Sirona
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LittleToe
Nic:
It could be that most "believers" saw themselves to be the butt of condescension. Your subsequent comments, in this regard, would seem to support such a view.Personally I've been away for a few days. My answer would be along similar lines to James.
I'd like you to define "God", for me, just as I'd like Gyles to define "meters"
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zen nudist
there will always loom large a notion that somethings exist even if we will never know anything about them...and there the concept of a god will always sit and stare back at us....
there will always be a feeling of something looking over our shoulder as we journey from one adventure to another...a sense that our internal dialogue is being said to someone else...why do we talk to ourself if we already know what we are going to say (^_^)...there seems to be an ever present sense that this internal dialogue is not for our own benefit alone...
when you look into the abyss the abyss stares back....
the concept of god is always linked to ultimate unanswerable questions which haunt every generation... so while many may live pragmatically without a second thought to the will of any particular god, there may never be an ending to that feeling that someone is watching even when no one is around. though it is only our own mind
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Qcmbr
...OK since you decided to make this personal and say how evil and I am and how my 'faith' is unloving then bite this.
1 - Funny how some people think someones post needs a point by point rebuttal as though they are some moral arbiter and are right - guess that's the JW training kicking in (just so noone gets offended JW training probably rocks)
2 - Pretty bizarre moral balance when its OK for the personal comments trashing a person but its not OK to make generalised statements that are not aimed at any particular person. Hmm maybe I should throw a hissy fit everytime someone whinges about people who still have a belief in God.
3 - Unbelievable that double standards are the norm - yes if someone makes statements about what they believe in IF disagreed with some people require a factual, referenced arguement but of course they rarely follow such a rule themselves. If you want a factual essay with neat explanatory refs at the bottom of every comment I make you can wait all day mates. As for my character at the moment I feel it incumbent upon me to find out facts for myself when I get hit with opposing views - right now I am reading Almost Like A Whale (updated Origin of Species), The Two Mile Time Machine (Ice Cores), Contempory Physical Geography and Basic Paleontology. For those who are really desperate to see the cr*p up our increasingly secular society is making of families then use the internet and look at some statistics - here's one for free http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1044
4 - Just for the record if you read my posts you'll find in general I'm much happier joking and larking about but that there are some things I take seriously my family, God and my core beliefs. If I want to stand up and make my point of view heard then I will (until such a time as Simon sees to scratch me out). In this case the thread has lots of voices agreeing with it and I personally disagree - the fact that I pointed out the logical end of evolution (your just a smart ape) and put it in stark emotional terms is to try and make people think from a different viewpoint - if you can't see that and you actually think that I am advocating these things then I misjudged you. I've seen lots of the evidence of outgrowing God. On the balance religion , in my experience, has been much much more positive for peoples quality of life than atheism. I saw my aunt broken by the death of her husband because she believes that's it he is gone and what they had is gone - so broken she ended up going a tad loopy. I've met a couple of humanists (nice people) but they have nothing to offer me - being kind and charitable is drummed home from my pulpit as much as it is from theirs. I've met plenty of aethists however who are living 'life to the full' which seems to involve several destructive behaviours that are probably going to lose them much of the quality of life they seem to live for.
5 - I look constantly for the good in all people (hmm religious training probably) but the strongest media voices seem to be so hollow and empty with reagrd to quality, responsibility, long term satbility etc... Science gives answers about observed events but not how to live life, political systems give answers about how to live life but not what the purpose of the life is -IMHO - aethiests are often as religious as God botherers and they can preach their own doctrine just as forcefully except they aren't even required to be nice.
6 - Last moan. I really dislike people who see a need to identify themselves as martyrs - such and such a person doesn't like that so therefore I need to identify with what they are attacking, turn it into a personal attack, wo is me and get all shirty about it. Religious people are great at it - so are some people in this forum. When I get up on my little high horse , unless I state otherwise, I am always talking from my heart and my standpoint not on some moral crusade for teh poorly wronged mongoloian squirrels that such and such a poster has soooo inconsiderately mentioned.
Ahhh that felt good. No hard feelings:)
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doogie
Q:
If you want a factual essay with neat explanatory refs at the bottom of every comment I make you can wait all day mates.
yes please...oh, i see. nevermind...
i understand that you were attempting to facetiously carry an evolutionist's beliefs to "their logical ends", and not actually spouting your own personal worldview, however, i am fairly certain you will be hard pressed to find a single evolutionist that subscribes to your sensationalised "logical end" as described in your above posts. your argument is a strawman that doesn't apply to ANYONE and therefore is hardly useful.