Will humanity EVER outgrow God?

by nicolaou 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Dustin

I don't believe in God anymore. If he actually existed at one time, he's not here anymore.
doogie

Q:
i found this quote from eminent evolutionist and VERY vocal atheist, Richard Dawkins that seems to have something to do with this subject:
"What is the purpose of life?" already has a straightforward Darwinian answer and is quite different from "What would be a worthwhile purpose for me to adopt in my own life?" Indeed, my own philosophy of life begins with an explicit rejection of Darwinism as a normative principle for living, even while I extol it as the explanatory principle for life.
This brings me to the aspect of humanism that resonates most harmoniously for me. We are on our own in the universe. Humanity can expect no help from outside, so our help, such as it is, must come from our own resources. As individuals we should make the most of the short time we have, for it is a privilege to be here. We should seize the opportunity presented by our good fortune and fill our brief minds, before we die, with understanding of why, and where, we exist. http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/Interviews/1997-winterhumanist.shtml
i'm sure with just a small amount of effort it would be easy to show that "survival of the fittest" is hardly an acceptable (or accepted) 'lifestyle' even in the atheistic community.
Abaddon

Qcmbr
Your posts condemn large swathes of humanity.
As part of one swathe, when your posts are based on assertion, and blatent misrepresentation of science, I feel it is worthy of comment.
Which part of 'Discussion Board' don't you get? Do you expect to make errors in your argumentation, such as it is, and not get comments? Do you expect to condemn large numbers of people because they have different beliefs, and for no one to say anything?
Your unsupported condemnation of secularism is no more valid than other unsupported condemnations of other 'belief-systems' or groups down through the centuries, and is just as odious. If you don't want comment, start a blog.
Qcmbr

wow Abb.. I really pressed your buttons.. chill
Qcmbr

..I 'm rereading all my posts to find these swathes of humanity I'm supposed to be dissing- I mentioned communists in reference to the Russian experiment in godless society (apologies to any marxists) but unless you just mean I'm attacking non-believers (shrugs - not really) then I haven't 'attacked' swathes of anything - if you want let me rephrase - society - the blob that is the sum of us all - is rejecting God (ie more people are rejecting God than accepting Him than in previous times - granted a few centuries ago you could be beaten / burnt or badly mistreated if you just missed church in the good old medieval western world) and is becoming more polarised (more extreme rejection or acceptance)- this drift from God is lauded by many but I happen to think its a disaster - it may be diffeent in the US but here in the UK traditional churches are seeing falling attendances with the exception of the Muslims, LDS, BAs and other smaller groups. At the same time I see the following UK society trends..

1 - less love for neighbours - far more isolation from each other.
2 - reliance on debt as a life style choice coupled with reduction in work ethic amongst many
3 - the rise of the irresponsible - it wasn't my fault culture.
4 - the rise of it was your fault culture - where's my lawyer
5 - lack of care about family - so few are even bothered by the idea of family break up as its so normal - until it happens to them.
6 - Increasing numbers of kids with multiple transient fathers and substitute dads (latest cohabiting partner)
doogie

1 - less love for neighbours - far more isolation from each other.
2 - reliance on debt as a life style choice coupled with reduction in work ethic amongst many
3 - the rise of the irresponsible - it wasn't my fault culture.
4 - the rise of it was your fault culture - where's my lawyer
5 - lack of care about family - so few are even bothered by the idea of family break up as its so normal - until it happens to them.
6 - Increasing numbers of kids with multiple transient fathers and substitute dads (latest cohabiting partner)

references, please.
otherwise it's like saying that because its dark at night and also there are more murders at night, murders cause darkness. besides the fact that murders can't be proven to directly affect luminance (similar to saying 'no religion causes nos. 1-6'), if you can't prove your assertion that more murders actually DO occur at night it renders your argument even more feeble.

Qcmbr

Doogie - did you listen to what I was saying - I see a trend - in my life in my real world experience . That isn't sitting on some convenient internet site for me to spool out to you.

Since you seem to want to play let me give you some sites that offer some statistical points - you could have found these - though I don't see how they would affect what my or your personal experience is.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/siqss/Press_Release/press_release.html
http://www.wfs.org/trendnd02.htm
http://www.accident-compensation-solicitor-uk.co.uk/html/Personal%20Injury%20News14.aspx

Data Chart CO3.1 Victimisation in the year preceding the survey, percentage of victimised once or more

	All crimes	car theft	theft from car	car vandalism	motorcycle theft	bicycle theft	burglary	attempted burglary	robbery	personal theft	sexual incidents	assaults and threats
Australia
1989	26.1	2.3	6.9	8.8	0.3	1.9	4.4	3.8	0.9	5.0	7.3	5.2
1992	28.6	3.1	6.6	9.5	0.3	2.1	3.7	3.8	1.3	6.5	3.5	4.7
2000	30.0	1.9	6.8	9.2	0.1	2.0	3.9	3.3	1.2	6.5	4.0	6.4
Austria
1996	18.8	0.1	1.6	6.7	0.0	3.3	0.9	0.5	0.2	5.0	3.8	2.1
Belgium
1989	17.7	0.8	2.7	6.6	0.4	2.7	2.3	2.3	1.0	4.0	1.3	2.1
1992	19.3	1.0	3.9	6.1	1.1	2.8	2.1	1.6	1.0	3.1	1.4	1.8
2000	21.4	0.7	3.6	6.1	0.3	3.5	2.0	2.8	1.0	4.1	1.1	3.2
Canada
1989	28.1	0.8	7.2	9.8	0.4	3.4	3.0	2.7	1.1	5.5	4.0	3.9
1992	28.4	1.3	7.3	8.5	0.2	3.7	3.4	2.7	1.2	5.5	3.8	4.8
1996	25.2	1.5	6.2	6.2	0.1	3.3	3.4	2.8	1.2	5.7	2.7	4.0
2000	23.8	1.4	5.4	5.5	0.1	3.5	2.3	2.3	0.9	4.7	2.1	5.3
Denmark
2000	23.0	1.1	3.4	3.8	0.7	6.7	3.1	1.5	0.7	4.1	2.5	3.6
England and Wales
1989	19.4	1.8	5.6	6.8	0.1	1.0	2.1	1.7	0.7	3.1	1.1	1.9
1992	30.2	3.7	8.6	10.6	0.4	3.0	3.0	2.9	1.1	4.2	2.1	3.8
1996	30.9	2.5	8.1	10.4	0.2	3.5	3.0	3.4	1.4	5.0	2.0	5.9
2000	26.4	2.1	6.4	8.8	0.4	2.4	2.8	2.8	1.2	4.6	2.7	6.1
Finland
1989	15.9	0.4	2.7	4.0	0.0	3.1	0.6	0.4	0.7	4.3	0.5	2.9
1992	21.2	0.7	2.9	5.6	0.3	5.0	0.6	0.6	1.0	3.4	3.7	4.4
1996	18.9	0.4	2.9	4.3	0.2	5.1	0.6	0.7	0.5	3.2	2.5	4.1
2000	19.1	0.4	2.9	3.7	0.1	4.9	0.3	1.0	0.6	3.3	3.7	4.2
France
1989	19.4	2.4	6.0	6.4	0.6	1.4	2.4	2.3	0.4	3.6	1.1	2.0
1996	25.3	1.6	7.2	8.3	0.8	2.8	2.3	2.2	1.0	4.0	0.9	3.9
2000	21.4	1.7	5.5	8.2	0.3	1.8	1.0	1.3	1.1	3.0	1.1	4.2
West Germany
1989	21.9	0.4	4.7	8.7	0.2	3.3	1.3	1.8	0.8	4.0	2.8	3.1
Italy
1992	24.6	2.7	7.0	7.6	1.5	2.3	2.4	1.7	1.3	3.6	1.7	0.8
Japan
1989	8.5	0.2	0.7	2.5	0.2	3.5	0.7	0.2	..	0.2	1.0	0.7
1992	..	1.1	2.3	..	3.2	9.6	1.1	..	..	1.3	1.8	0.5
2000	15.2	0.1	1.6	4.4	1.0	6.6	1.1	0.8	0.1	0.5	1.2	0.4
Netherlands
1989	26.8	0.3	5.2	8.2	0.4	7.5	2.4	2.6	0.8	4.4	2.6	3.3
1992	31.3	0.5	6.8	9.6	1.0	10.0	2.0	3.0	1.0	4.6	2.2	4.0
1996	31.5	0.4	5.4	9.9	0.7	9.5	2.6	3.3	0.6	6.8	3.6	4.0
2000	25.2	0.4	3.9	8.9	0.6	7.0	1.9	2.7	0.8	4.7	3.0	3.4
New Zealand
1992	29.4	2.7	6.9	7.9	0.3	4.4	4.3	3.6	0.7	5.3	2.7	5.7
Northern Ireland
1989	14.9	1.6	4.0	4.4	0.1	1.6	1.1	0.9	0.5	2.2	1.9	1.8
1996	16.8	1.6	3.1	6.7	0.0	1.2	1.5	1.1	0.5	2.5	1.2	1.7
2000	15.0	1.2	2.7	4.5	0.0	1.4	1.7	0.9	0.1	2.2	0.6	3.0
Norway
1989	16.4	1.1	2.8	4.6	0.3	2.8	0.7	0.4	0.5	3.2	2.2	3.0
Poland
1992	27.0	0.7	5.3	4.7	1.0	4.2	2.1	2.3	1.7	8.1	3.6	4.2
1996	22.9	0.9	5.7	5.4	0.3	3.2	2.0	1.8	1.8	5.6	1.5	3.7
2000	22.7	1.0	5.5	7.0	0.1	3.6	2.0	1.3	1.8	5.3	0.5	2.8
Portugal
2000	15.5	0.9	4.9	6.3	0.3	0.8	1.4	1.2	1.1	1.9	0.6	0.9
Scotland
1989	18.6	0.8	5.4	6.5	0.3	1.0	2.0	2.1	0.5	2.6	1.2	1.8
1996	25.6	1.7	6.6	9.8	0.1	1.9	1.5	2.4	0.8	4.5	1.3	4.2
2000	23.2	0.7	4.2	9.0	0.1	2.0	1.5	1.9	0.7	4.6	1.1	6.1
Spain
1989	24.8	1.4	9.6	6.6	0.8	1.1	1.6	2.1	3.1	5.2	2.3	3.1
Sweden
1992	21.5	1.7	3.9	4.5	0.6	7.0	1.4	0.8	0.3	4.2	0.9	2.7
1996	24.0	1.2	4.9	4.6	0.5	8.8	1.3	1.1	0.5	4.6	2.9	4.5
2000	24.7	1.3	5.3	4.6	0.4	7.2	1.7	0.7	0.9	5.8	2.6	3.8
Switzerland
1989	15.6	0.0	1.9	4.1	1.2	3.2	1.0	0.2	0.5	4.5	1.7	1.2
1996	26.7	0.1	3.0	7.1	1.4	7.0	1.3	1.1	0.9	5.7	4.6	3.1
2000	18.2	0.3	1.7	3.9	0.2	4.7	1.1	1.8	0.7	4.4	2.1	2.4
United States
1989	28.9	2.1	9.2	8.9	0.1	3.0	3.8	5.4	1.9	4.5	4.5	5.4
1992	26.1	2.6	7.0	8.0	0.4	2.9	3.1	3.9	1.5	5.3	2.3	4.7
1996	24.2	1.9	7.5	6.7	0.2	3.3	2.6	3.0	1.3	3.9	2.5	5.7
2000	21.1	0.5	6.4	7.2	0.3	2.1	1.8	2.7	0.6	4.9	1.5	3.4

Source: International Crime Victims Surveys, March 2002. See http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/pdf_files/key2000i/app4.pdf

Data Charts C06.1 C06.2 Convicted adults admitted to prisons Rates per 100 000 people
Rates per 100 000 people

	1990	1991	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000
Australia	133.48	149.60	160.64	147.99	133.21	85.42	86.81	89.31	91.05	96.48	93.38	Australia
Austria	56.11	52.57	57.97	55.63	62.02	..	..	..	..	..	..	Austria
Belgium	30.58	27.62	35.20	37.51	37.21	..	..	..	..	..	..	Belgium
Czech Republic	38.15	69.09	75.73	82.78	94.64	109.58	124.36	132.54	143.49	155.29	150.11	Czech Republic
Denmark	45.18	48.39	44.66	46.31	49.64	48.53	44.60	44.89	42.69	44.46	42.86	Denmark
England and Wales	..	..	..	..	..	..	..	..	89.67	88.11	90.15	England and Wales
Finland	55.94	54.91	56.56	52.25	49.24	56.07	47.63	46.32	47.89	46.41	49.55	Finland
Germany	..	..	..	..	..	50.88	53.30	55.93	61.25	64.02	64.97	Germany
Greece	34.02	32.43	38.22	44.20	36.21	34.12	31.22	..	..	..	..	Greece
Hungary	80.85	94.05	105.80	87.06	83.32		85.24	91.55	97.65	103.69	109.00	Hungary
Iceland						35.45	36.67	32.35	31.02	29.55	22.06	Iceland
Ireland	51.23	52.78	52.18	52.00		51.86	52.89	59.05	..	..	..	Ireland
Italy	19.36	24.57	34.55	39.18	44.36	45.16	46.47	46.59	46.30	48.96	50.77	Italy
Japan	32.30	30.50	30.00	29.87	29.97	30.79	32.08	33.11	34.31	35.70	39.25	Japan
Korea	67.68	70.56	72.14	75.57	75.82	71.05	69.76	71.68	75.92	79.69	78.58	Korea
Luxembourg	68.08	71.82	65.48	73.35	75.04	..	..	..	..	..	..	Luxembourg
Mexico	44.37	47.66	50.41	51.34	50.20	..	..	..	78.26	84.22	92.90	Mexico
Netherlands	..	..	..	..	..	42.95	48.01	46.63	39.40	38.52	34.81	Netherlands
New Zealand	..	..	..	..	..	115.03	..	131.21	128.00	127.98	132.27	New Zealand
Norway	..	..	..	..	..	36.12	35.20	31.95	29.78	..	..	Norway
Poland	81.63	104.10	114.91	114.63	113.25	..	..	..	..	..	..	Poland
Portugal	61.64	46.35	58.54	67.62	62.13	72.12	85.81	96.92	100.64	85.23	85.42	Portugal
Slovak Republic	52.22	85.73	91.79	97.17	99.90	108.91	110.03	104.44	90.88	90.17	91.58	Slovak Republic
Spain	..	..	..	..	..	84.15	77.52	77.05	107.39	108.42	110.66	Spain
Sweden	49.30	49.02	50.68	53.75	58.54	50.45	47.99	41.29	..	..	..	Sweden
Switzerland	55.39	56.32	56.54	60.49	63.41	60.13	59.05	58.54	45.44	45.74	48.38	Switzerland
Turkey	51.26	18.47	21.84	25.39	33.53	41.92	49.77	55.44	58.17	61.91	33.81	Turkey
United States	143.23	..	159.97	..	..	..	..	..	452.87	469.09	468.49	United States

Data Chart & Table CO5.1 Teenage births, income inequality and school drop-out, 1998

	Teenage birth rates	Income inequality index - Gini coefficient	Percentage of 15-19 years-olds not in education		Teenage birth rates	Income inequality index - Gini coefficient	Percentage of 15-19 years-olds not in education
Korea	2.9	..	21.4	Germany	13.1	28.2	11.7
Japan	4.6	..	..	Austria	14.0	26.1	23.8
Switzerland	5.5	26.9	15.9	Czech Republic	16.4	..	25.1
Netherlands	6.2	25.5	14.0	Australia	18.4	30.5	18.4
Sweden	6.5	23.0	13.9	Ireland	18.7	32.4	19.3
Italy	6.6	34.5	30.2	Poland	18.7	..	18.6
Spain	7.9	..	23.5	Canada	20.2	28.5	22.0
Denmark	8.1	21.7	19.9	Portugal	21.2	..	23.8
Finland	9.2	22.8	17.0	Iceland	24.7	..	20.3
France	9.3	27.8	12.2	Hungary	26.5	28.3	24.6
Luxembourg	9.7	..	..	Slovak Republic	26.9	..	..
Belgium	9.9	27.2	13.9	New Zealand	29.8	..	28.3
Greece	11.8	33.6	22.4	United Kingdom	30.8	32.4	30.5
Norway	12.4	25.6	13.6	United States	52.1	34.4	25.8

Note: Countries are ranked in ascending order of teenage birth rate.

Sources:
UNICEF (2001), "A league table of teenage births in rich nations", Innocenti Report Card, Issue n°3, July 2001 ;
OECD (2000), Education at a Glance ;
Förster M. (2000), Trends and Driving Factors in Income Distribution and Poverty in OECD area, Labour Market
and Social Policy Occasional Paper, No 42, Paris.

Data Chart GE5.3: Divorces per 100 marriages and mean (years of) duration at divorce
Données Graphique GE5.3: Nombre de divorces pour 100 mariages et durée moyenne (en années) du mariage au moment du divorce


		Number of divorces per 100 marriages
		1970	1975	1980	1985	1990	1995	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002
		Nombre de divorces pour 100 mariages
		1970	1975	1980	1985	1990	1995	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002
Australia	Australie	11.0	57.5	36.4	34.3	36.4	45.4	46.5	46.0	44.0	53.6	n.a
Austria	Autriche	19.6	23.1	28.7	34.5	36.0	42.4	45.7	46.9	49.8	60.2	53.6
Belgium	Belgique	8.7	15.3	21.8	32.0	31.5	68.1	59.7	59.8	59.8	69.6	75.7
Canada	Canada	15.8	25.6	32.5	33.7	41.8	48.4	45.2	45.5	45.2	48.5	47.5
Czech Republic	Republique czech	23.7	26.9	34.7	37.8	35.2	56.7	58.8	44.2	53.7	60.3	60.2
Denmark	Danemark	26.2	41.7	51.4	49.1	43.6	37.4	37.8	38.2	37.5	39.9	41.1
Finland	Finlande	14.8	29.7	32.2	35.2	52.6	59.1	57.6	57.8	53.2	54.6	49.4
France	France	9.9	14.4	24.3	39.9	36.9	46.8	42.9	40.8	n.a	39.1	n.a
Germany	Allemagne	18.1	28.1	28.4	36.1	30.0	39.4	46.1	44.3	46.4	50.7	n.a
Greece	Grèce	5.2	4.9	10.7	11.9	10.2	17.2	14.1	15.7	22.7	20.2	n.a
Hungary	Hongrie	23.6	25.1	34.6	40.0	37.5	46.5	57.4	56.3	49.9	56.0	55.4
Iceland	Islande	15.5	23.5	33.8	42.1	41.5	38.1	31.7	30.3	30.7	37.1	32.4
Ireland	Irlande	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a	n.a	n.a	n.a	13.7	14.7	n.a
Italy	Italie	n.a.	2.8	3.7	5.2	8.7	9.3	12.0	12.3	13.2	15.4	n.a
Japan	Japon	9.3	12.7	18.3	22.6	21.8	25.1	31.0	32.9	33.1	35.7	38.3
Korea	Corée	3.9	5.8	5.9	10.3	11.4	17.1	31.1	32.5	35.9	42.2	47.4
Luxembourg	Luxembourg	10.1	9.4	27.1	33.9	32.9	35.1	49.9	49.9	48.0	51.8	54.0
Mexico	Mexique	8.7	n.a.	4.4	n.a.	7.2	n.a	n.a	6.6	7.4	8.6	9.8
Netherlands	Pays-Bas	8.3	20.1	28.5	41.1	29.7	41.9	37.3	37.5	39.3	46.6	40.1
New Zealand	Nouvelle-Zélande	12.1	19.4	28.3	34.9	38.7	46.8	50.0	47.1	47.0	48.5	49.7
Norway	Norvège	11.7	21.5	29.8	40.6	46.4	47.8	40.0	38.9	39.6	44.9	n.a
Poland	Pologne	12.3	12.5	13.0	18.4	16.6	18.4	21.6	19.2	20.3	23.2	23.7
Portugal	Portugal	0.6	1.5	8.1	13.1	12.9	18.7	22.9	25.7	30.0	32.3	47.4
Slovak Republic	République slovaque	9.5	14.0	16.8	20.0	21.9	32.7	33.9	35.3	35.8	41.3	43.4
Spain	Espagne	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	9.2	10.5	16.5	n.a	n.a	18.0	18.2	n.a
Sweden	Suède	29.9	57.6	52.9	51.6	47.8	67.0	65.7	58.9	53.9	58.8	56.1
Switzerland	Suisse	13.7	25.3	30.5	29.4	28.3	38.5	46.2	51.1	26.4	43.8	40.7
Turkey	Turquie	n.a.	n.a.	4.3	5.1	5.6	6.2	6.6	6.6	7.6	11.1	11.4
United Kingdom	Royaume-Uni	13.4	30.0	38.2	44.6	44.1	52.8	52.5	52.7	50.5	54.8	55.0

Marriage Rates number of marriages per 100 000

		1970	1971	1972	1973	1974	1975	1976	1977	1978	1979	1980	1981	1982	1983	1984	1985	1986	1987	1988	1989	1990	1991	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001
		1970					1975					1980					1985					1990					1995					2001
Austria	Autriche	7.1	6.4	7.6	6.5	6.5	6.1	6.1	6.0	5.9	6.0	6.2	6.3	6.3	7.4	6.1	5.9	6.1	10.1	4.7	5.6	5.9	5.7	5.8	5.7	5.5	5.4	5.3	5.2	4.9	4.9	4.9	4.3	AUT
Belgium	Belgique	7.6	7.6	7.7	7.6	7.5	7.3	7.3	7.0	6.8	6.7	6.7	6.5	6.3	6.1	6.0	5.8	5.8	5.7	6.0	6.4	6.5	6.1	5.8	5.4	5.1	5.1	5.0	4.7	4.4	4.3	4.4	4.1	BEL
Czech Republic	Republique czech	9.2	9.3	9.7	10.0	9.8	9.7	9.4	9.1	8.8	8.2	7.6	7.5	7.5	7.8	7.9	7.8	7.9	8.1	7.9	7.8	8.8	7.0	7.2	6.4	5.7	5.3	5.2	5.6	5.4	5.2	5.4	5.1	CZE
Denmark	Danemark	7.4	6.6	6.2	6.1	6.6	6.3	6.2	6.3	5.6	5.4	5.2	5.0	4.8	5.3	5.6	5.7	6.0	6.1	6.3	6.0	6.1	6.0	6.2	6.1	6.8	6.6	6.8	6.5	6.6	6.7	7.2	6.8	DEN
Finland	Finlande	8.8	8.2	7.6	7.5	7.4	6.7	6.8	6.5	6.3	6.1	6.2	6.3	6.3	6.1	5.9	5.3	5.3	5.3	5.2	5.0	5.0	4.9	4.7	4.9	4.9	4.7	4.8	4.6	4.7	4.7	5.1	4.8	FIN
France	France	7.8	7.9	8.1	7.7	7.5	7.4	7.1	6.9	6.6	6.4	6.2	5.8	5.7	5.5	5.1	4.9	4.8	4.8	4.8	5.0	5.1	4.9	4.7	4.4	4.4	4.4	4.8	4.9	4.7	4.9	5.1	4.9	FRA
Germany	Allemagne	7.4	7.2	7.0	6.7	6.5	6.7	6.5	6.5	6.0	6.2	6.3	6.2	6.2	6.3	6.4	6.4	6.6	6.7	6.9	6.7	6.5	5.7	5.6	5.5	5.4	5.3	5.2	5.2	5.1	5.3	5.1	4.7	DEU
Greece	Grèce	7.7	8.3	6.8	8.3	7.6	8.5	6.9	8.2	7.7	8.3	6.5	7.3	6.9	7.2	5.5	6.4	5.8	6.6	4.8	6.1	5.8	6.4	4.7	5.9	5.4	6.0	4.2	5.6	5.1	5.6	4.5	5.2	GRC
Hungary	Hongrie	9.4	9.1	9.4	9.8	9.6	9.9	9.5	9.1	8.7	8.2	7.5	7.2	7.1	7.1	7.0	6.9	6.9	6.3	6.3	6.4	6.4	5.9	5.5	5.2	5.2	5.2	4.8	4.6	4.4	4.4	4.7	4.3	HUN
Iceland	Islande	7.8	7.9	8.1	8.3	8.8	7.8	7.5	7.1	7.1	6.4	5.7	5.9	5.6	5.9	5.9	5.2	5.1	4.7	5.2	4.7	4.5	4.8	4.8	4.6	4.9	4.6	5.0	5.5	5.6	5.6	6.3	5.2	ISL
Ireland	Irlande	7.0	7.4	7.4	7.4	7.3	6.7	6.4	6.1	6.4	6.2	6.4	6.0	5.8	5.6	5.2	5.3	5.2	5.2	5.2	5.2	5.1	4.9	4.7	4.7	4.6	4.3	4.5	4.3	..	4.9	5.0	5.0	IRL
Italy	Italie	7.4	7.5	7.7	7.6	7.3	6.7	6.4	6.2	5.9	5.8	5.7	5.6	5.5	5.4	5.3	5.3	5.3	5.4	5.6	5.7	5.6	5.5	5.5	5.3	5.1	5.1	4.9	4.8	4.9	4.9	4.9	4.5	ITA
Japan	Japon	10.0	10.5	10.4	9.9	9.1	8.5	7.8	7.2	6.9	6.8	6.7	6.6	6.6	6.4	6.2	6.1	5.9	5.7	5.8	5.8	5.9	6.0	6.1	6.4	6.3	6.4	6.4	6.2	6.3	6.1	6.4	6.4	JPN
Korea	Corée	9.2	7.3	7.3	7.6	7.5	8.0	8.0	8.3	9.3	9.4	10.6	9.4	9.2	9.2	8.9	9.2	9.2	9.1	9.2	9.4	9.3	9.6	9.6	9.0	8.7	8.7	9.4	8.4	8.0	7.7	7.0	6.7	KOR
Luxembourg	Luxembourg	6.4	6.5	6.6	6.0	6.2	6.8	6.2	6.2	5.9	5.8	5.9	5.5	5.7	5.4	5.4	5.4	5.1	5.3	5.6	5.8	6.1	6.7	6.4	6.0	5.8	5.1	5.1	4.8	4.8	4.9	4.9	4.5	LUX
Netherlands	Pays-Bas	9.5	9.3	8.8	8.0	8.1	7.3	7.1	6.7	6.4	6.1	6.4	6.0	5.8	5.5	5.7	5.7	6.0	6.0	6.0	6.1	6.4	6.3	6.2	5.8	5.4	5.3	5.5	5.5	5.5	5.7	5.5	5.0	NLD
New Zealand	Nouvelle-Zélande	9.2	9.5	9.3	8.9	8.4	8.0	7.8	7.2	7.2	7.2	7.4	7.6	8.1	7.7	7.8	7.6	7.4	7.5	7.2	6.9	7.0	6.2	5.9	5.8	5.7	5.6	5.5	5.3	5.3	5.5	5.4	5.1	NZL
Norway	Norvège	7.6	7.6	7.3	7.1	6.9	6.5	6.3	5.9	5.8	5.7	5.4	5.4	5.3	5.0	5.0	4.9	4.9	5.0	5.2	4.9	5.2	4.7	4.5	4.5	4.8	5.0	5.3	5.4	5.3	5.3	5.7	5.1	NOR
Poland	Pologne	8.6	8.9	9.3	9.4	9.5	9.7	9.5	9.4	9.4	9.1	8.6	9.0	8.7	8.4	7.7	7.2	6.9	6.7	6.5	6.7	6.7	6.1	5.7	5.4	5.4	5.4	5.3	5.3	5.4	5.7	5.5	5.1	POL
Portugal	Portugal	9.4	9.7	9.0	9.8	9.3	11.3	10.9	9.7	8.5	8.3	7.4	7.7	7.4	7.5	7.0	6.8	6.9	7.2	7.1	7.4	7.2	7.2	7.0	6.8	6.6	6.6	6.3	6.5	6.6	6.8	6.2	5.7	PRT
Slovak Republic	République slovaque	7.9	8.4	8.7	9.0	9.0	9.3	9.2	9.2	9.0	8.6	8.0	7.9	8.0	7.9	7.7	7.5	7.4	7.4	7.1	6.9	7.7	6.2	6.4	5.8	5.3	5.1	5.1	5.2	5.1	5.1	4.8	4.4	SVK
Spain	Espagne	7.4	7.4	7.6	7.8	7.6	7.6	7.3	7.2	7.0	6.6	5.9	5.4	5.1	5.2	5.2	5.2	5.4	5.6	5.7	5.7	5.7	5.6	5.6	5.1	5.1	5.1	4.9	5.0	5.2	5.2	5.4	5.1	ESP
Sweden	Suède	5.4	4.9	4.8	4.7	5.5	5.4	5.5	4.9	4.6	4.5	4.5	4.5	4.5	4.4	4.4	4.6	4.7	4.9	5.2	..	4.7	4.3	4.3	3.9	3.9	3.8	3.8	3.7	3.6	4.0	4.5	4.0	SWE
Switzerland	Suisse	7.6	7.2	6.9	6.5	6.1	5.6	5.1	5.3	5.1	5.4	5.7	5.6	5.8	5.9	6.0	6.0	6.2	6.6	6.9	6.8	6.9	7.0	6.6	6.2	6.1	5.8	5.8	5.5	5.4	5.7	5.5	5.0	CHE
Turkey	Turquie	..	..	..	..	..	..	..	..	..	..	8.3	8.6	6.9	6.4	6.9	7.3	7.5	8.3	8.3	8.4	8.2	8.0	7.5	7.7	7.6	7.5	7.7	8.1	7.4	7.2	6.8	6.6	TUR
United Kingdom	Royaume-Uni	8.5	8.2	8.6	8.1	7.8	7.7	7.2	7.2	7.4	7.4	7.4	7.1	6.9	6.9	7.0	6.9	6.9	7.0	6.9	6.8	6.5	6.1	6.1	5.9	5.7	5.5	5.3	5.3	5.2	5.1	5.1	..	GBR

Data Chart SS6.1 Net incomes of social assistance recipients in percent equivalent of median household income, in 2001
Données Graphique SS6.1 Revenus nets des bénéficiaires de l'aide sociale, en pourcentage équivalent au revenu médian des ménages, en 2001

		Couple with 2 children
		Couple marié, 2 enfants
		No housing-related benefits	With housing-related benefits (rent=20% APW)
		Sans allocations liées au logement	Avec allocations liées au logement (loyer=20% SOM)
Poland	POL	54.5	54.5	POL
Czech Republic	CZE	52.8	52.8	CZE
Australia	AUS	52.4	58.3	AUS
Denmark	DNK	46.1	51.6	DNK
New Zealand	NZL	44.9	51.0	NZL
Belgium	BEL	43.3	43.3	BEL
Austria	AUT	40.1	49.7	AUT
Norway	NOR	39.7	39.7	NOR
Canada	CAN	37.0	37.0	CAN
Netherlands	NLD	36.9	42.6	NLD
Finland	FIN	36.8	51.5	FIN
Ireland	IRL	36.4	48.6	IRL
Portugal	PRT	35.7	35.7	PRT
United Kingdom	GBR	34.3	49.9	GBR

SS4 Working mothers

	Data Chart SS4.1
	Données Graphique SS4.1

	Employment rates for mothers with youngest child aged under 6 a , 1990 b and 2002 c
	Taux d'emploi des mères dont le plus jeune enfant a moins de 6 ans a , 1990 b and 2002 c
	2002	1990
PRT	79.2	67.4
SWE	77.5	85.0
AUT	74.6	50.8
DNK	74.3	..
NLD	71.2	37.0
BEL	68.8	64.4
LUX	66.7	40.9
FRA	64.7	61.3
CAN	62.7	56.9
SWI	61.0	33.5
USA	59.5	54.0
OECD-20	59.2	48.5
DEU	57.1	41.4
GBR	57.0	42.5

Data Chart CO3.2: Proportion of respondents who are active or inactive group members by type of group
Données Graphique CO3.1: Proportion des personnes déclarant être membre actif ou inactif d'une association, par type d'association


		Church - Religious	Sport - Cultural	Political - Unions
		Église - Réligion	Sport - Culture	Politique - Syndicale
Australia	Australie	47.4	64.3	44.0
Austria	Autriche	25.4	31.5	30.0
Belgium	Belgique	11.9	37.2	29.7
Canada	Canada	29.5	39.2	35.5
Czech Republic	République tchèque	6.6	28.9	20.1
Denmark	Danemark	11.9	41.7	62.3
Finland	Finlande	47.0	33.1	39.4
France	France	4.4	21.5	9.5
Germany	Allemagne	13.5	32.1	13.9
United Kingdom	Royaume-Uni	5.0	12.0	13.2

Double Edge

Q..
Could you please be more specific.......
Abaddon
Qcmbr
I 'm rereading all my posts to find these swathes of humanity I'm supposed to be dissing

Well, if you can't see what your own words mean... I can try to help you...
Without a belief in God there would be no such concept as marriage (it becomes a bit of paper)
If this isn't a condemnation ("to express complete disapproval of") of a secular couple who are married, what is it? You reduce what is likely to be sincere, committed and loving relationship to a piece of paper. It is as empty and unfounded a comment as if I said "religious people do good because they fear the punishment of doing bad, it's not true good, it's following a piece of paper they think god wrote", and is just as insulting as that comment would be to some religious people.
indeed we see secular society broadening the definition of marriage to include gays
No, you don't condemn anyone, you just express complete disapproval of gay marriage... oh, but that is condemnation, isn't it Qmcbr?
Why should two people who love each other be denied legal union with each other if they are of the same gender?
at the same time downgrading it from a promise made in the presence of God's representatives to a civil union merely for legal purposes of division of assets.
This is another condemnation of secular marriage, this time as a 'division of assests'; must come as a surprise to secular people who married 'cause they loved each other. It's especially funny as it is made by completely ignoring THIS ('division of assests') IS WHAT MARRIAGE NORMALLY WAS under religious society through history AND that such marriages were typically arranged.
Children are not given the privilege of married parents as a right (the normal condition under religious society) and instead we see schools / government and fringe liberals pushing the agenda of disparate families tied by no more than some shared dna and a dalliance with no commitment.
Are you still going to say you are not expressing complete disapproval of secular society? Which is to say, condemning secular society? You seem to regard 'marriage' as a panacea, when the inability to dissolve a bad marriage due to religious constraints leads to as much unhappiness and sorrow as divorce can lead to. How many religous marriages through the centuries we shams, where the partners kept up a facade but lived seperate lives underneath? How is that meant to be better than divorce?
Without a belief in God we are left with the concept of evolution as our God and the Nazis are proved right - a pure species where the mighty rule the weak becomes desirable because nature demands it. It becomes required to destroy the non-providers, the parasites , the physically unable because we are just animals and survival of the pack demands the cull of the burdensome. As soon as someone is born with an 'evolutionary advantage' (skin color, physical strength, good looks etc..) it becomes beholden to propogate their advantage as far and as wide as possible and to ensure those genes survive.
Without a belief in God we must go to war with other races because they are using resources that should be ours - every foreigner mining, burning, eating, living is a threat. Wars such as Iraq are necessary without God - if we are threatened for any reason we must strike when we are sure of winning.
This whole segment is like a Daily Express Editorial from the 30's. Firstly you distort what natural selection actually is, and confuse it with Nazi propoganda. You ignore the wars that were fought for religion, in the name of religion, with religious objectives and motivations. You express complete disapproval of people who don't believe in god, and claim they are brutal and ruthless in their actions and motivations.
unless you just mean I'm attacking non-believers (shrugs - not really)
Yes, you are attacking non-believers, condemning them, 'expressing complete disapproval' of them.
if you want let me rephrase - society - the blob that is the sum of us all - is rejecting God (ie more people are rejecting God than accepting Him than in previous times - granted a few centuries ago you could be beaten / burnt or badly mistreated if you just missed church in the good old medieval western world) and is becoming more polarised (more extreme rejection or acceptance)
Huh? Secular society is based on TOLERANCE and EQUALITY. Religion is the chief polarising factor in world affairs today. Conservative factions who oppose such initiatives as free frade and fair trade are often allied with traditional religious factions - look at America. The current war, largely a war caused by Western interference decades ago that went wrong and ended up blowing-up in our faces, Western interference that couldn't have happen if concepts such as human rights were followed by those in power at the time, has been characterised as a religious war by religious people, making the conflict deeper and more polarised.
granted a few centuries ago you could be beaten / burnt or badly mistreated if you just missed church in the good old medieval western world
Yeah, old-style religion is lovely isn't it? Can see why you want to go back. Now, is it floating or sinking that marks out a witch?
- this drift from God is lauded by many but I happen to think its a disaster -
Yah, but your thoughts are based on misconceptions about science and selective vision of your advocated 'solutions' own problems
it may be diffeent in the US but here in the UK traditional churches are seeing falling attendances with the exception of the Muslims, LDS, BAs and other smaller groups.
Yea, religiously active Muslims, Mormons and Born Agains are SUCH a good example for the rest of society!
At the same time I see the following UK society trends..
1 - less love for neighbours - far more isolation from each other.
Population trends, urbanisation, modern working schedules, change in evening entertainment and relaxation, reduction in average family size, family groups no longer remaining in the same area as they subdivide on marriage... there's a whole host of factors behind social 'isolation'. These trends are neither secular or religious in character.
You seem to be condemning secularism for modern society's ills when the ills of modern society are a concequence of factors such as those I list. You also seem to have ignored that religion has failed and is failing to cope with the change in society which is why less people are interested in it.
But less love? I don't think the 'love' between people who know each other and live in the same neighbourhood (i.e. neighbours) is any different qaulitatively ot quantitatively. Modern charities would seem to indicate that people also show love for people they have never even met and will never met, and such charities are creations of the secular age, even if some are founded by religious people. Look at the foundation dates of the major charities.
2 - reliance on debt as a life style choice coupled with reduction in work ethic amongst many
Oh yes, the end of the world is neigh, I have an overdraft and a mortgage. LOL. 'Reduction in work ethic' could be taken to read 'people prioritise themselves and their lives over devotion to their job'. Again, is that bad???
3 - the rise of the irresponsible - it wasn't my fault culture.
4 - the rise of it was your fault culture - where's my lawyer
Funny, the first legal stipulations about injury to bystanders caused by accidents in the workplace are in the Bible. So, secular society is to be condemned due to modern trends in legislation? Like;
Like racial equality? Secular society did that.
Like sexual equality? Secular society did that.
Human Rights? Secular society did that.
... your vision is too selective for your opinions to be defensable. Hell, at least I can concede the existence of religion doing good; you just ignore the good secular society does because ignoring it makes your argument sound logical - to you.
5 - lack of care about family - so few are even bothered by the idea of family break up as its so normal - until it happens to them.
Which is better;
a disfunctional unhappy marriage where neither partners or children are happy due to the pressure
a farse kept on to impress the vicar, where the partners live seperately (under the same roof) but pretend they are together
a divorce where children remain in regular contact with both parents and both parents get the opportunity to build a new happier life whilst ensuring their children remain loved and cared for.
To say divorce is intrinsically bad goes against the facts. It is as empty a claim as saying marriages staying together is intrinsically good. It if the end results of the marriage or the divorce that define it, not whether it is a marriage or divorce, and unhappy marriages don't produce happy children.
6 - Increasing numbers of kids with multiple transient fathers and substitute dads (latest cohabiting partner)
More Express editorial. On the ASSUMPTION that divorce is bad, the fact that there are relationships after a divorce is assumed to be bad. So. having a man in the house is only good for kids if he's their father? Nice of you to express complete disapproval of people who have divorced or if never married seperated having relationships again.
Let's list reasons why we have never had it so good;
Globally;
life spans are longer than they have ever been (unless ya believe in Methusalah)
literacy is higher than it has eve been
average years in education is higher than it has even been
access to decent medical health is higher than it has even been
access to clean water is higher than it has even been
average calorie intake is higher than it has even been
in the event of a natural disaster, international help will arrive
The massive social changes of the past century have and will cause problems, there is no denying that. But ignoring all the good of the secular world is painting a false argument Qcmbr.
EvilForce

Great post Abbadon!

I am consistenly amazed by various people who state that men will denegrate into these harsh, horrible, dispicable creatures without faith.
Is this how they feel about themselves if they would give up on God? Do they see themselves as doing these types of horrible crimes and
what not to their fellow man, but the only thing that keeps them on the straight and narrow is a belief in God?!?

I have heard many a fundie talk about how they would be out fornicating, drinking, and abusing drugs if they didn't have their belief in
God. I then usually proceed to ask them what specifically keeps them inline. It's not the faith usually but rather the fear of an eternal
judgement or damnation.

So maybe religion does serve a purpose. It gathers up the sociopaths that normally would be bent on killing, robbing, and drinking
themselves into abandon, and keeps them from straying too far. A lapse here and there yes....but then they can feel guilty about it
for all their days. So if religion gathers up the misfits and sociopaths, then isn't religion itself sociopathic? Nazi's were sociopathic,
and we have just proven churches are sociopathic so Churchs are Nazi recruitment centers.

As the argument spirals down the toilet. But Q I find your arguments to be as ineffective as the above one. This is not an attack on you.
But I can not for the life of me understand how you think so little of the human race. IMO it is the LDS that focus you on the evil, bad
things going on in the world. Much like the Dub's look at the negative not the positive. There are so many awesome, good things
going on too.

Will humanity EVER outgrow God?

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