Thanks for the replys. I have to ask you Narkissos, just where do you see the "not yet" in 2 Thess outside the traditional intepretation of this passage? I don't see it. I think we can read chapt 2 without drawing the conclusion that the writer expected a long wait. I think especially if we use an alternate translation for katekhon such as 'seizing' or "gaining the upper hand" such as was offered in the L.Scott link, we can see a consistancy with 1 Thess. I think the writer felt this final eschatological drama was imminent, he was just refuting the notion that it had already occurred.
thing restraining
by peacefulpete 26 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
hmike
Narkissos,
From 2 Thes. 2:5-6, Paul had already explained these things to them in a visit.
My thinking is this: They were afraid that the Day of the Lord had already begun. Paul assures them that it hasn't happened, and cannot happen until the falling away occurs and the man of lawlessness (or man of sin) is revealed. Early in this letter, he commended them for their growing faith and love, so the falling away can't start in that environment. God's Spirit, fully at work in them and through them, is the restraining factor.
Some people have used these scriptures to assert the church will be taken up off the earth before the tribulation. I don't think the text demands that interpretation. It just means the restraining force holding back the man of sin will be relaxed, or no longer be exerted.
-
Narkissos
PP,
The "not yet" (which needs not mean "distant future") I mostly hear in v. 1-3 (regardless of the meaning of katechon in v. 6f):
As to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we beg you, brothers and sisters, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as though from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here (enestèken). Let no one deceive you in any way; for (that day will not come) unless the apostasia comes first (ean mè elthè... prôton) and the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction, is revealed.
In the traditional (three-step) interpretation, something which has not yet fully emerged (A) must be revealed (B) before the day of the Lord (C).
In the two-step interpretation, the author and readers live in the time of covert apostasia (A') which delays the apocalupsis of both the man of lawlessness and the Lord (C'). While in this perspective step C' can strike anytime, without any intermediate future event, the point is still "not yet". The generic scenario may be similar to 1 Thessalonians but the emphasis is different imo.
(Ironically, the WT artificially read a 3-step scenario into 1 Thessalonians, by misinterpreting the proverbial, i.e. timeless, statement on "peace and security" as the prediction of a specific future event, before the day of the Lord...)
-
Leolaia
On hypothesis (2) of my above post, note also that the angel of the abyss in Revelation 9:11 is called Abaddón in Hebrew and Apolluon in Greek, and the Hebrew word 'bdwn (Abaddon), as a name of Sheol, is rendered in the LXX by the word apóleia "destruction" which occurs in the expression huios tés apóleias in 2 Thessalonians 2:3; however, the identity with the Son of Destruction with the Man of Lawlessness suggests that the Son of Destruction is not an infernal angel restraining the Lawless One but rather is himself destined for destruction (cf. the parallel in Revelation 17:8 which has the Beast that ascends from the abyss as going off eis apóleian "into destruction"); compare the hoi apollumenoi of 2 Thessalonians 2:10 who have a similar destiny.
-
peacefulpete
Narkissos, It is interesting isn't it about 1Thess 5:3 and how the lapse of time has forced an opposite meaning on the verse.
Leolaia.."son of destruction" sounds like John 17:12 (Judas is usually inferred). Is this a common idiom?
-
Leolaia
I like the three-step scenario, especially as it makes a better fit with the apocalyptic motifs in Revelation 12-13. The present time of katekhon, the "now" during which the "mystery of lawlessness" (neuter) is currently at work and restraining (neuter) the implicit work of the church, which must be fulfilled before both the Man of Lawlessness and Christ would appear at the end. The slow down in work is the major theme in ch. 3, and 3:1-2 also refers to deliverance "from unreasonable and wicked people" so that "the Lord's message may spread quickly (trekhé)"; this may involve an implied interference from such people involved in the present "restraining" and the "mystery of lawlessness". Compare also 1 Thessalonians 2:18-19 which says that "Satan prevented us" from visiting the church at Thessalonika and with respect to persecution Paul added that "I was afraid the Tempter might have tried you too hard and all our work might have been wasted" (3:5). The "one who restrains" (masculine) could then be identified with "Satan" (2 Thessalonians 2:9) who would later be responsible for the revealing of the Lawless One (anomos). The present-time lawlessness espoused by Satan, which restrains or "holds down" the faith and work of Christians, could be associated with the "war" the Dragon wages on "all who obey God's commandments and bear witness for Jesus" (Revelation 12:17). One Pauline passage appears to associate a present circumstance of katekhon with lawlessness:
"The anger of God is being revealed (apokaluptetai) from heaven against all the impiety and depravity of men who keep truth imprisoned (katekhónton) in their wickedness (adikia)" (Romans 1:18).
This present circumstance would then end when the Restraining One (masculine) is "removed" (lit. ek mesou genetai "be put out of the midst"). The phrase ek mesou occurs in expressions of forcible removal; e.g. "The tribune ordered his troops to go down and haul him out (harpasai auton ek mesou) and bring him into the fortress" (Acts 23:10). This "removal" has been linked to the expulsion of Satan and his angels from heaven in Revelation 12 by Frame who sees a parallel between the two apocalypses. What happens after this removal is the "appearance" of the Lawless One, the Man of Lawlessness, who will be the agent through whom Satan will set to work with "all kinds of miracles and a deceptive show of signs and portents and everything evil that can deceive those who are bound for destruction" and who will "enthrone himself in God's temple and claim that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4, 9-10). The apostasia that would precede the "Day of the Lord" would involve the deception of those "bound for destruction" via these signs and portents. Similarly, Satan is described in Revelation 13 as delegating his power and authority to the two Beasts, the second of which "worked great miracles, even calling down fire from heaven" and "put up a statue of the beast" which all were required to worship (13:12-15). Similarly, Didache 16:1-8 claims that "the deceiver of the world will appear as a son of God and will perform signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands and he will commit abominations the likes of which have never happened before" BEFORE the "coming of the Lord on the clouds of heaven". Also the Ascension of Isaiah refers [1] first the descent of Satan to the earth: "Beliar will descend, the great angel, the king of this world, which he has ruled ever since it existed (4:2; compare with the wording in Revelation 12:9), "He will descend from the firmament in the form of a man, a king of iniquity, a murderer of his mother" (compare the "man of lawlessness/iniquity" of 2 Thessalonians 2 and the Nero redivivus myth in Revelation), and then [2] the working of miracles by this king: "By his word he will cause the sun to rise by night, and the moon he will make to appear at the sixth hour... and the power of his miracles will be in every city and district" (4:5, 10), and at the same time [3] he will declare himself to be God and set up his image to be worshipped: "He will act and speak like the Beloved and will say, 'I am the Lord and before me there was no one' ... and he will set up his image before him in every city" (4:7, 11; compare 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13:12-15), and then [4] after 3 1/2 years "the Lord will come with his angels" and they "will drag Beliar, and his hosts also, into Gehenna" (4:14). Like Revelation and the Didache, there will be a period of time when Satan or the Antichrist figure will have to deceive the world with miracles and persecute the righteous before the Lord Jesus comes. This seems to be the same scenario in 2 Thessalonians, which assumes a time when the Man of Lawlessness would sit in the Temple and would deceive the world with miracles, whom the Lord Jesus would subsequently destroy "with the breath of his mouth" (v. 8). It thus makes sense to argue that the "Day of the Lord" has not already arrived since the Man of Lawlessness has not been revealed yet (v. 2-3).
-
Kenneson
Leo,
If 2 Thess. is written after the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. how could the Man of Lawlessness sit in the Temple in chapter 2, verse 4? Are not some groups today pointing to this Scripture to support their belief that the Temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem for this to be fulfilled?
-
Leolaia
Yes, it is a Semitic idiom, referring to the Pit (= shcht, which occurs in poetic parallelism with Sheol like 'abdwn); in the Qumran sectarian writings, we thus encounter such phrases as "Man of the Pit" (1QS 10:19), "Men of the Pit" (1QS 9:16, 22), and "Sons of the Pit" in CD 6:15.
-
Leolaia
Kenneson....In 1 Corinthians 3:16-17, Paul uses the same expression naon tou theou "temple of God" to refer to the Christian believer (compare 6:19, 2 Corinthians 6:16), so it could be the case that an incarnation in the body (= "temple") of a believer is meant, or that he would take his place inside the Christian community, tho this seems strained and if the epistle is sub-Pauline we would not necessarily expect genuine Pauline usage. If the epistle is indeed sub-Pauline, it is still possible that it is pre-AD 70; the passage also lacks such obvious post-AD 70 elements as the Nero redivivus theme. If it is post-AD 70, the reference to the "temple" may well be a vestige of the older Jewish form of the legend, ultimately deriving from the motif of the "abomination of desolation" in Daniel that was installed in the Temple, which was retained rather than eliminated by the passage of events.
-
peacefulpete
Leolaia..that was a great post yet I still am convince it requires reading into the text to assume a third character in the role of 'restrainer'.
Here is Narkissos' translation with a twist:
And you know what (neuter) is now seizing or gaining headway, so that he (masculine) may be revealed at his appointed time. For the mystery (neuter) of lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one (masculine) who now seizes is removed. And then the lawless one (masculine) will be revealed, whom (masculine) the Lord [Jesus] (masculine) will destroy with the breath of his mouth and annihilate by the manifestation of his (masculine) advent -- the advent of whom (masculine) is according to the working of Satan...
All the associations with other apocalypses is retained without the convolutions resulting from assuming a third party in 6 and 7. Even if we retain the notion of resistance rather than seizing etc. we can still read it without the third person. The word restrain invited the idea of a mystery person here implied, and you may be working from that premise, though your particular explanation is better grounded than that of many others. I think you might be reading too much into the text. The work of the Church is not really implied, it onlt appears to be a plausible explanation once it is asssumed that the word means restained and therefore something need be found to be restrained.