Prove to me that God exists

by CinemaBlend 257 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  OldSoul

  Abbaddon,

  So then, prove that energy exists. Except by measuring it with arbitrary systems developed by those who previously believed in the existence of energy and were only trying to substantiate their belief through some means more solid than "faith" in its existence, there is no proof for energy. In other words, those who believed in the existence of energy also developed the means by which to test for its existence and the means by which to identify its properties. Bias? You betchya.

  If they had simply called energy "God," we would not be having this discussion. It has always existed, it cannot be destroyed, it is in every physical thing we can observe, it is, utlimately, the source of life. It is even involved in the mechanism through which new species emerge. Now, the existence of something we test for has been established to have properties very similar to those ascribed to God.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
• 

  Qcmbr

  Hmm I have to take task with one of the premises of this arguement.. that God is testable in a scientific way. You see aethiests hold the cards in this aspect because If God exists He/She etc.. is presumably self aware and is potentially everywhere, nowhere , in a single location in alimited body etc.. etc.. depending on which religion's God you are looking to prove. The tools to prove a self aware being don't exist (just the same way you couldn't scientifically prove I exist if you didn't know where I lived or what I looked like.)Also assuming the premise that their is a god it must be a god who is interested in us (otherwise they would lose the tag of god...well they would for me - unless we are broadening our definition of God to anything smarter than us in the universe..)
  
  The onus on proving whether God lives or not is on God not man to prove (ie if I want to let you know I exist its my job to do so as opposed to you looking for me in the off chance that you'll strike lucky and you'll be happy with what you find - not likely in my case unless you like specky brits:)
  
  Now if God lives then would he want to prove himself to us? (If you have an ant farm do you feel an overwhelming urge to make contact??- would they even understand if you did??) We could suggest that if He did want to prove himself then we must be important to Him (ie we are not a simple ant farm.) If we are important to God we must have some relationship to Him (even if that is only a friend / benevolent dictator / dire overlord / child / ok! ant farm ..)
  
  If we have a relationship with someone each partner in the relationship carries some 'part'(can't think of a better word) of the other person in them (for example - a memory, dna, a current engineered situation, etc..) therefore to find God we could start by first 'finding' ourselves (if God finds us we cannot say we found him by definition)so the sincere seeker for proof of a God(who has a relationship with man) could first find himself.
  
  How do you find yourself since you are you and its hard for a construct to deconstruct itself? This is maybe where we are trapped by the need for an external mirror to show us ourselves and which mirror do you trust. The first adventure is, can we prove that we ourselves exist? I would make one given suggestion here (brain getting lazy) - when I mean do we exist I mean more than as a simple lump of electrical meat - does our conscience exist (if it doesn't then we cannot prove God exists since we - as a conscious entity - don't. With the exception of a few thinkers I would suggest we can all take as a given that we do have a consciousness. Only a consciousness would recognise a relationship with another consciousness...I think..?)
  
  What within us then would provide evidence of that one to one relationship with God that would prove Him to ourselves?
  
  a) A direct memory - a shared experience (this would be up to the individual to ratify and trust.) Not a proof for anyone except someone who believes the person. This is enough proof for many people (ie scriptures are recods of this nature, visions, voices in the night etc...)
  b) Part of our discernable structure could be 'fingerprinted' by God. Some see evidence of design in life. Christian thinking makes us in God's image. There are some religions (mentioning no usual suspects) that take that relationship to an nth degree and say we are gods offspring. If we took a long view , our sum of knowledge is increasing and we are destined to become gods by some definitions anyway (if you could travel back in time and take your current tech many would end up worshipping you even now since you can fly, talk across thousands of miles, transmit images the same distance etc..) So this is a circular proof that at least god is possible and that we may be gods. As for a barcode on life that has yet to be found - we haven't found a 'made in heaven' tag.
  c) A miraculous occurence that altered our environment. Some see this is the order of the universe, some have evidence from their own life that they would take as proof (a personal miracle that was sufficiently in contravention of the laws of physics / coincidence to convince them.)
  
  
  My summation:
  
  1/ So to prove (the)God(we are looking for) ourselves is currently looking scientifically impossible unless God leaves fingerprints that are findable and testable or could Himself be constrained in a testable experiment - not likely knowing our hypothesis of who God is.
  2/ If God is interested in us we must be in a relationship with Him. This relationship would need to be defined.
  3/ God must exist as a conscious entity for this relationship to exist.
  3/ We must exist as a conscious entity for this relationship to exist.
  4/ Proof is therefore only possible on a one to one basis. Even seeing a mass demonstration could be dismissed as mass hallucination / camera tricks etc..
  5/ Until you have tried the path of one who has a belief in God you are not in a position to deny what they claim about God ( if I say a particular mountain view is xy or z only a personal trip up the mountain can confirm it and then only for you.)
• 

  peacefulpete

  5/ Until you have tried the path of one who has a belief in God you are not in a position to deny what they claim about God ( if I say a particular mountain view is xy or z only a personal trip up the mountain can confirm it and then only for you.)

  The problem is that each believer inherently feels and argues that their experience is unique and irrefutable despite the other lack of evidence. This type of special pleading is recognized and deeply understood by those few who have shared such an outlook but then were awakened to our self deception. Yes i agree that noone (including and necessarily Christians) understands the mind of a Christian as well as a former one.
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  i lack a belief in god(s), because of the lack of evidence for his existence. god has not provided me or anyone with any credible evidence that he exists. nature has not provided me with any evidence that he exists. humans have not provided me with any evidence that he exists. it's not that i haven't searched for evidence, or been open to evidence. it just has not been forthcoming.

  oldsoul,

  If they had simply called energy "God," we would not be having this discussion.

  we know that energy exists because evidence of it's existence can be observed everywhere, and in a testable manner, if i may add. we do not have to be able to touch and feel it to know it exists. this is not the case with god. again, you scale metaphors to reality. this is disturbing as it is exactly how religions get their start in the first place.

  Qcmbr,

  You see aethiests

  atheists.

  just the same way you couldn't scientifically prove I exist if you didn't know where I lived or what I looked like.

  if you had all sorts of followers running all around the world, commiting all sorts of crimes in your name, i think it is fair to say that everyone would know where you lived, and could prove you existed. afterall, we all know where george w. bush lives.

  ie: if I want to let you know I exist its my job to do so

  so then, you're an atheist too?

  The onus on proving whether God lives or not is on God not man to prove

  no. i have shown in this thread that the onus falls on the god believer, since god is not doing it himself. all of your arguments have an implied assertion in it. "god exists". i don't know how many times i have to make this point. if an atheist says she has a lack of a belief in god, then how can you turn around and say it is up to god to prove to her that he exists? that would mean nothing to an atheist!!

  (If you have an ant farm do you feel an overwhelming urge to make contact??- would they even understand if you did??)

  non sequitur. it does not follow to compare us to an ant farm. we didn't create the ants, make contact with a few ants thousands of years ago, perform a few miracles and then tell them to write a book about us. and then, never show our face again because the intelligence we gave the ants offends us because some of them question our existence! come on.

  5/ Until you have tried the path of one who has a belief in God you are not in a position to deny what they claim about God ( if I say a particular mountain view is xy or z only a personal trip up the mountain can confirm it and then only for you.)

  wow. the logic in your post almost proves that god doesn't exist. anyways, atheists have a lack of a belief in god(s). you have to show us why it is reasonable to believe in your deity before we are going to make a trip up some holy mountain. would you go the full distance and "experience" the Invisible Pink Unicorn, if i used your arguments in this post to show that you just had to experience it to understand? puh-leeze.

  I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
  - Stephen Roberts
• 

  Abaddon

  MouldSole

  (hint, my name's not difficult)

  So then, prove that energy exists.

  Subject to what I said earlier, that I believe I exist even if I don't and within that reality can according to reliable rules (within that reality) determine whether something is real (in that reality) or unreal (in that reality).

  Therefore your question isn't relevent. Without the prescene of energy, in this reality, not only would you be in a dark room staring at a dark screen, but nothing would exist.

  'God', within this reality, is not testable for as other things in this reality that are real (in this reality). This doesn't mean that god is unreal. God might be outside this reality and unmeasurable from within this reality. Also, we might not have the equipment with which to measure god, but it has to be said there's also a thundering lack of indirect evidence.

  But the question is "prove to me that god exists". Not "prove to me god doesn't exist", which is as impossible as disproving my friend, invisable purple Abraham Lincoln.

  Within this reality god's reality is not as determinable as a ten ton truck is. You can prove to the satisfaction of almost everyone that something as tangible and demonstarble as a ten ton truck exists in this frame of reference. You can't prove god in the same way, and if god doesn't like the rules that way, tough, he made it that way.

  'God' in most ideations is a being with a mind. If you want to call a mindless thing - energy - god, fine, at least I understand what you mean even if your manner of phrasing it is contrary to what I mean when I use 'god'.

  I just think it's high time we stop thrashing around claiming that there are things that we can't 'prove' unless there is good indirect evidence for it. We've been doing it for millenia and most of the time, historically speaking, when people disagree about such things they resolve the argument in blood, which is very real, and very tragic.

  (Please note this is not saying all wars are caused by religon. It is saying exactly what it says.)
• 

  Qcmbr

  Tertapod - normally I think your answers are at least logical to me but I was stumped by a couple points:
• 

  Qcmbr

  Tertapod - normally I think your answers are at least logical to me but I was stumped by a couple points:
  
  1/ Why would people commiting crimes in my name allow you to know where I was or even that 'I am'?
  
  2/ Why does me letting you know I exist make me an atheist? I lurked here before I proved my existence to you all... in both cases I believed in God..
  
  My point about the onus is on God to prove Himself is because the proofs required to prove a conscious entity( that has influence) cannot be on the conscious entity who receives confirmation - they can only report the event / evidence. In my case I know God lives - I prayed and received an answer that is absolute but I can only report that to you as opposed to making you experience it. If what I said was in fact true then you could have the same experience IF God let you (ie the onus is on Him - and you actually - as the believer I drop out the picture..)
  
  My point about the ant farm was simple - we put the glass together - chose the ants - feed them etc.. it was just the simple idea of how a superior intelligence could influence another intelligence no more. Technically we could bio engineer the ants and build a new species, we could (hypothetically) give them enough intelligence to communicate ideas about us I suppose if we wanted to take the analogy too far..
  
  Actually the point about the pink unicorn is interesting - it takes a tremendous amount of maturity and self discipline to not reject other peoples 'truth' I'm always intrigued by the idea that just because everyone sees things one way they aren't another (I like the matrix for that reason!). I appreciate that the pink unicorn is a bit of a strawman to make it easy to knock down but if people started to say that a 'PU' had appeared to them and given them info you'd be churlish to reject it immediately just because the last time you saw a PU you where watching an episode of My Little Pony. That's where I think maturity comes in to respect other peoples right to experience things that might be outside your worldview (the 'you' I am referring to is any reader not you Tetrapod:) - case in point with the milky hindu god episode. Let me make clear though that I'm not suggesting that we should all run helter skelter after things just because someone somewhere said so..that's the flip side to maturity - wisdom IMHO.
• 

  Qcmbr

  hehehe sorry .....tetrapod not tertapod :) One day maybe I'll be able to spell and write complex stuff without blathering idiocy. If I was a god I'd have revealed the ten commandmints.
• 

  LittleToe

  ...would they have a hole in the middle?
• 

  Evanescence

  Prove to me god exists?

  ok well I do believe in god, but if you want a debate, (I know you'll all eat me up) I give it my best shot...

  and also may I add a good site to debate this is www.catholics.com argue with all the people there.

  my first point: Science cannot prove that god exists because god is spiritual and not physical.

  Science can tell us everything about physical objects but not spiritual.

  Second point: If you seek god with all your heart, mind and spirit you will find him, so you must have faith and seek him with your heart.

  I seeked god with my heart and I have found him, so thats my personal experiance. Listen to the little voice inside of you, ignore all the clang clang in your head, and all of the distractions, you must stop blocking him, right now you are probebly trying to push god away.

  We can see god everywhere once we have discovered him. If you go up to a faithful christian you will not be able to convince them that god doesn't exist with science, for they already discovered god themselves god, jesus and the Holy spirit walks with them as they live out their daily lives. Right now you may think "yeah thats it you can only believe in god by FAITH and FAITH alone" but is that not what the devil is decieving you with? its the devil that is constantly whispering lies in your ears. If you ignore the devil and resubmit your life to god and ask him to enter your life (you don't need to go to an organistation like jehovah's witness for thsi) surely he will come to you when you seek him with all your heart. It may be best to get baptised in a church that baptises you in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit.

  third point: big bang? who caused it?

  The way things motion in our world? the rotation of the sun and moon? can this be a coincidence? Surely there must be a divine intelligence behind it all, to organiste the food chain, the position of the planet to design our world, it couldn't of all just happened?

  Well that will do for now! here comes the.... SHARK ATTACK!!!!!

  please don't eat me, you asked 4 a debate......

  Evanescence