Does the Ransom Sacrifice doctrine add up?

by nicolaou 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  LongHairGal

  Terry:
  
  The part you mention about there not being a perfect wife for Jesus in order to make perfect children was a queston I also asked.
  
  I was then told: "Well, Jesus's perfection is so great that it would overcome her imperfection...so it wouldn't matter, etc."
  
  I don't know if this could ever be true so the point is moot but that was the type of answer I got.
  
  LHG
• 

  zen nudist

  if Jesus was real and did pay for the sins of mankind.... why do people still die?

  if people must die, then the JW belief in surviving the big A are just BS.[belief systems] without basis....

  seems to me if the debt is paid, then there is no reason left for the penalty to apply.

  yet the penalty of sin = death is still being applied to every human being, no exceptions found so far...and there is no justification in penalizing one who has been freed of his penality, now is there?

  but like any con game, excuses must be found and given...nothing more. is required for people of faith.
• 

  frankiespeakin

  EL,

  A balancing of higher laws through a perfect sacrifice that defies our simple human logic?

  A life for many lives - seems fair enough to me.

  So you are in effect saying you don't understand the ransom you just have faith that a supreme being knows what he's doing even if you can't make sense out of it.
• 

  M.J.

  that the "bride of Christ" is the second Eve, and this is how the "Bride Class" have a sharing in the redemption of mankind.

  This isn't NEW LIGHT its OLD LIGHT!!! You've stumbled onto the original teachings of Nelson Barbour and various Adventists of the 1800s. This is exactly where Charles Russell got his original doctrines from and they continue to this day among the various Bible Students. It was heavily stressed by Russell that the 144,000 were going to become GODS, partaking of the "divine nature", becoming one with Christ and becoming "co-redeemers" and "co-sacrificers" of the WORLD with Christ. In a book called "Three Worlds and The Harvest of this World", published in 1877, shortly after Russell and Barbour became publishing associates, Nelson Barbour wrote the following (pp. 5-9):

  http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/history/3worlds.pdf

  The "Seed," means one complete Christ; in other words, the head and body; "He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy Seed, which is Christ" (Gal. 3:16). "And if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed [not seeds], and heirs according to the promise" (ver. 29). Thus the object and work of the gospel is to perfect this "seed," those who are to take the name of Christ, and become one with him. And this agrees with Acts 15:14; "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. " And this is the sole object of the gospel to the Gentiles; not to convert the world, that work belongs to the millennial age, but to perfect the second Adam and the second Eve, Christ and his wife. And the millennial age is introduced by the marriage of the Lamb; "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready" (Rev.19:7).

  This world ends with the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of this "seed;" just this number who make up the body of Christ, "Christ, the first fruits, afterwards they that are Christ's, at his coming." And then it is, the work of the salvation tion of the world begins.

  All that was lost in Adam, is to be restored in the second Adam. And this "restitution of all things," begins only at the second advent: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you; whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things; which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:19-21).

  A restitution of all things, must include a resurrection of the

  whole human family; and as the resurrection does not commence until the end of this gospel age; and does not end until "the thousand years are finished;" therefore the restitution belongs, not to the gospel, but to the millennial age, and world to come. And it is there we get our reward; "There is no man that hath left house, or parents, for the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many fold more in this time, and in the world to come, life everlasting" (Luke 18:30).

  The kingdom of God belongs to the world to come, and is a spiritual kingdom; and those who inherit it are to be spiritual beings. Christ, its head, was "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." And the apostle affirms, "Though we have known Christ after the flesh, henceforth know we him no more." And of the dead in Christ, it is said, they are "sown a natural [or animal] body; raised a spiritual body. There is an animal body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living animal; [soul, in this text means person ], the last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is animal; and afterwards that which is animal; and afterwards that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth earthy; the second man, the Lord from heaven.…Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 15:44-50). A spiritual body does not mean a soul without a body. Hence, in the state of death, man has no body; for it is only at the resurrection we get a spiritual body. And in 1 Cor. 15, Paul claims that if there be no resurrection "then they which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished .' ‘But some will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what bodies do they come"? Then he goes on to show that the dead in Christ are raised ed a spiritual body.

  Although the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, it is to be set up on this earth; and we are taught to pray, "Thy kingdom come." In the second of Daniel, four great empires, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Rome, are brought to view; and the fourth was to be divided into ten parts, represented by the ten toes of the image. These ten divisions of the Roman empire now exist as France, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, England, Spain, Portugal, Lombardy, Romania, and Ravenna. The last three, being "the three plucked up" by the papacy. And when "the stone" smites the image, it is on "the feet and toes;" viz. the divisions of the empire. And the explanation given, is that "In the days of these [ten] kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and it [that is this kingdom of God] shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever" (Dan. 2:44). And in Rev. 11:15, under the sounding of the seventh trumpet, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. And in Dan. 7:14, "One like the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven, and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages, should serve him."

  Here is positive proof that this kingdom of God is not set up, nor given to Christ, until the end of this world, when He comes in the clouds of heaven. And He himself says "My kingdom is

  not of this world."

  ...

  It will be remembered that God has promised the kingdoms of this world to Christ...

  This is not gospel conversion, else He is simply promising his bride that if she is faithful to the end, she shall be permitted to rule over and dash herself in pieces. Nor is it the burning of the world, as some suppose; for in that case they would not rule over them at all. In Luke 19:11-27, Christ supports the same idea, that the reigning and the gospel are distinct; and that the above "ruling with a rod of iron," means real subjugation... This work of subduing, and ruling the nations with a rod of iron, does not commence, however, until the sounding of the seventh trumpet at the end of the gospel age; for until that time the kingdoms of this world remain in possession of "the prince of this world;" "wheat and tares grow together;" "evil men and seducers wax worse and worse," "and they that will live Godly shall suffer;" "for every son that he loveth, he chasteneth."

  That Christ and his saints are

  eventually to reign on the earth , is placed beyond all doubt by comparing Rev. 20:4, and 5:10, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. " And this reigning is positively affirmed to be after the resurrection; and in Dan. 7:13, 14, as if to make it doubly sure, it is shown that the dominion over the nations is not given to Christ until he comes in the clouds of heaven , which we know is at his second advent. And under the seventh trumpet, when the saints are rewarded, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ. Hence until that time, they remain in possession of those who are opposed to Christ. And Jesus not only acknowledged the devil to be the prince of this world, but positively affirms, "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:30). But the period of time during which the seventh trumpet is sounding, a period to continue yet nearly f orty years , is a pivotal point, so to speak, between "this present evil world," and "the world to come." And during this transition period, the kingdoms of this world are to pass into the hands of our Lord, but in the midst of such a "time of trouble," and "angry nations," as this world has never witnessed; when these kingdoms will be "dashed to pieces, like a potter's vessel;" and the above Scripture realized, "God reigneth over the heathen [not over the immortalized bride of Christ], Come, Behold the works of the Lord, what desolations he hath made in the earth; he maketh wars to cease unto the ends of the earth." And when this state of things obtains; when "the kingdom is the Lord's and he is the Governer among the nations ," David says, "All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the kindreds of the nations shall come and worship before thee" (Ps. 22:27). And there, in the millennial age, "Christ [and his immortal bride] shall reign until all enemies are subdued; and death [which is not conquered until the thousand years are ended] is the last enemy." And the conversion of the world, clearly promised, will then be consummated.

  The christian church have been right in believing in the eventual conversion of the world, no doctrine of the Bible is so clear and unmistakable; but they have failed to distinguish between the work of the

  gospel of the kingdom, and the kingdom itself; the one being a preparatory step to the other.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Thank you MJ.

  However, let the record show that I did not "stumble" onto anything; my feet are placed precisely where I want them to be. I knew the origin of the "Mystery Doctrine," having read about it in Edmond Gruss' book, "The Four Presidents of the Watch Tower Society."

  This Mystery Doctrine has never been repudiated by the WTS. It has gone undercover, but it continues. Every reference to "the annointed" in WTS publications harkens back to this Mystery Doctrine.

  "The woman’s “seed” is primarily Jesus Christ, who was anointed with holy spirit in 29 C.E. The 144,000, who are “born again . . . from water and spirit” and who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ, are a subsidiary part of that seed of promise. These began to be added to the woman’s seed from Pentecost 33 C.E. onward."

  - The WATCHTOWER, June 1, 1996, page 9, "The Serpent’s Seed—How Exposed?"

  Anyone familiar with Watchtower history has heard of the books "The Finished Mystery" and "Then is Finished the Mystery of God." What mystery did you think they were referring to?

  Although he is one of the greatest Witnesses of modern times, it is NOT a reference to Mickey Spillane.
• 

  M.J.

  My apologies, It is I who stumbled on it while reading some of the old Russell/Barbour publications. I must check out the four presidents book. I am very much interested in the progression of these doctrines. Thanks for the info...
• 

  Carmel

  If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity -- that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection. We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 122) Not all who accept the bible do so literally, carmel
• 

  Terry

  A life for many lives - seems fair enough to me.

  Ah, the very thing that seems most UNfair to me!

  The ancient Jewish law called lex talones (the law of the talon) was designed to prevent blood feuds or revenge killing.

  This is the very deed GOD INDULGES IN!!

  God has a feud with Adam! He exacts vengence on NOT ONLY ADAM, but every single one of his offspring through all of history!

  Exasperatingly, Jesus (God's own son) stops the madness from going forward by shedding "innocent" blood ON BEHALF of the offspring of Adam.

  It is not only miles distant from any conception of what is ____fair____but, is injustice turned upside down.

  Let me demonstrate.

  Let's say you and I get into an argument. You say or do something that deeply offends me and I seek revenge for this slight. In my mind my revenge is supposed to set the matter right because I punish you for your offense. The act of punishing you gives me a sense of setting the balance back to fairness.

  Tit for tat is what most primitive tribes have indulged in throughout history. They get carried away and hurt somebody for a non-physical offense. The matter escalates and whole tribes are hating and killing other whole tribes. (Tootsies and Hoo Toos) (Jews and Arabs) (Irish and British)

  The LAW OF THE TALON made the hurt exactly match the punishment. IT WAS TO PREVENT ESCALATION.

  Back to Jesus......

  Jesus throws himself into the mix and says, "Stop the madness, Father, you may have a grudge against the children of Adam; but, I'm willing to let you take out your anger and hurt pride on ME!"

  And this is something Jehovah goes along with?????

  Weird and wild and wacky, if you ask me.

  It violates the very Law Jehovah set up! One life is not the same as many. So, Jesus could only have died FOR ADAM.

  T
• 

  Terry

  I was then told: "Well, Jesus's perfection is so great that it would overcome her imperfection...so it wouldn't matter, etc."

  JW's have INVENTED the whole idea of human perfection.

  It is their concept and theirs alone.

  Nowhere in the Bible is there a direct statement about human perfection. It is taken out of contexts diverse and imputed by flabby Watchtower logic into a kind of pet doctrine.

  Humans are made of genetic material. Jesus had genes (presumably because he was human) and so would any human wife. HALF of Jesus and HALF of the human wife would create the DNA matrix for any children.

  In the wild, wacky and weird world of the Watchtower I suppose Jesus genes trump (cancel out) the entire process of passing on genetic material from one human to another.

  In Matthew, the geneology of BOTH parents is given. This is exasperating. Why? Joseph had no part in transferring his genetic (geneological) heritage into Jesus. It is a moot point.

  The whole matter is just screwed up beyond recognition. Patchwork excuses have to be injected into any question or answer given like Microsoft trying to save their faulty software programs with "updates".

  T.
• 

  toreador

  What I always wondered as a jw was did Jesus really have to die the horrible death he did or could he have lived to a ripe old age and died of natural causes and provided the same ransom or did God like the idea of a human sacrifice?

  Tor