Does the Ransom Sacrifice doctrine add up?

by nicolaou 60 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Leolaia

  the classicist....Good point about the penances, which worked to demonstrate repentance....but if at death one has fully repented from all one's sins, does it matter how much a person has sinned in his or her life? My impression is that, barring unforgivable sins, the slate is wiped clean with repentance, whereas the older view viewed sins as cumulative, and it is not enough to repent from today's sins so you can sin tomorrow...

  (I like that scene from Desperado when El Mariachi tells the priest it's no use confessing his sins at that moment, "because where I'm going, I'll just have to come right back" ).
• 

  JamesThomas

  Does anything in the Bible add up? That we continue to give it such great importance, time and attention simply proves that we deserve such a confusing mess of contradiction and foolishness as our ultimate spiritual guidance.

  It would be hilariously funny if it were not so extremely dismal.

  j
• 

  toreador

  Thank you Leolaiai for that information. I am going to need to do some more research.

  I appreciate those links. Very informative!
• 

  Narkissos

  Looking back, one turning point in my life was the day when a dear friend of mine told me: "I never understood why Jesus had to die for us."

  We were two Bethelites sitting in the (French) Bethel library. She was the daughter of a DO, "born into the truth," etc. Startled, I went through all the WT demonstration, feeling increasingly stupid as she kept smiling gently. No this didn't add up.

  This was the start of a great series of incredibly free and illuminating conversations, opening a completely fresh reading of the Bible to me. Coincidentally, I had to translate the article "ransom" for the Aid book shortly afterwards, and successfully pleaded to entitle it "rançon, rédemption" ("ransom, redemption") as the notion of "ransom" was definitely too narrow, even for the actual contents of the article.

  As Leolaia pointed out, the notion of "ransom" is just one of the many interpretative patterns applied to Jesus' death (and resurrection) in the NT (I posted an analytical table to some of them in http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/90444/1517804/post.ashx#1517804). There it is far from central, far from systematic, and nowhere related to Adam's sin. As RodP said (unfortunately I didn't find the corresponding article) it is entirely distinct from the sacrificial notion of expiation (which is not central either). It is not a classical doctrine in later Christianity (cf. saint Anselm's Cur deus homo?, "Why did God become a man," which offers a completely different explanation for Christ's incarnation and death). Only in late 19th-century adventism does the notion of "ransom" actually come to the fore -- if not only in Russell's group, this would be an interesting issue to search.
• 

  Terry

  I had it explained to me this way:
  
  Jesus gave up his right to bear children; so if he did have children he would have supposedly fathered a perfect race with no defect.
  
  So, technically, in his loins was the potential for a whole race of people, yet unborn.
  
  So, when he gave up his life it was supposedly a perfect exchange for the existing human race.
  
  (or words to that effect).

  Notice how anonymous the female aspect of this becomes in the long run?

  Eve was the bad "guy" in Eden. Her birth pangs were increased, etc. But, it is called Adamic sin.

  Jesus was the 2nd Adam but, there is no 2nd Eve.

  Jesus "could have" fathered "perfect" children but, no mention is made of the necessity of a perfect wife.

  Etc etc.

  Women just aren't important at all in this scenario.

  And as far as a "perfect race" is concerned; Perfect IS as perfect DOES. Just being born without sin seems to be beside the point. It is what you DO with your life that renders you good or bad.

  Even the very notion of a PERFECT person seems incredibly ad hoc and absurd.

  A person's nature is what it is. Obedience or disobedience comes from the very nature of a person. A perfect man or woman would, perforce of their identity (perfection) be unwilling and unable to choose a course of action imperfect in nature.

  See how wacky this is?

  T.
• 

  Rod P

  Narkissos,

  Go back to http://www.voiceof jesus.org

  Once there, on the left side, click on "Papers". This will give you his various titles.

  Go down the List of Papers and click on "70. The Lamb of God" and you're there.

  Rod P.
• 

  toreador

  Hello Alan,

  http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

  I dont see a "God's Justice" link anywhere on your above link.

  thanks,

  Tor
• 

  nicolaou

  It's a little way down the page... never mind, here it is http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/ransom.htm
• 

  Narkissos

  RodP, thanks for the link: http://www.voiceofjesus.org/lambofgod.html
  A bit naive if you ask me (especially in the distinction of "what Jesus said" from "what NT writers said"), but I think he is correct in pointing out that "ransom" and "expiation sacrifice" are mutually exclusive in a literal sense -- which doesn't mean that they can't both be used as metaphors, along with many others.

  Terry, central indeed to the JW doctrine of ransom is the concept of perfection, which as applied to Adam or Christ is completely unbiblical.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Terry said a couple of things that got me thinking:

  6.God sends his guiltless son to die IN PLACE OF Adam (but not EVE). But, Adam has already died!

  and

  Jesus was the 2nd Adam but, there is no 2nd Eve.

  I think that possibly we here begin to touch on the "secret" doctrine of the Watchtower Society; that the "bride of Christ" is the second Eve, and this is how the "Bride Class" have a sharing in the redemption of mankind.

  Comments?