Question for Christians and ex-JW: How is salvation attained? (page 3)

M.J.

C'mon Pole, it's not that wild a leap. I'm not saying each of these are synonymous, playing some kind of word hopscotch. I'm just saying that each idea has merit in the overall picture of salvation. Perhaps each section of the Bible appeared to indicate differing central ideas on the subject, I'll grant you that. But I do think that when taken all together one comes away with the overwhelming and most direct message that it centers on Christ. And the "competing" messages are supplemental to that central theme.

Narkissos

MJ:

What I tried to point out is that "standard Christianity," especially in the Protestant realm (salvation by faith/grace), is actually neo-Paulinism -- a minority view in the NT, later put to the fore and modified by Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc.

Reading the whole NT from this perspective leads to subordinate the other writings to the Pauline view -- even when they were completely opposed to it (e.g. Matthew or James): Paul gives the essentials, the rest is optional.

For instance, does the Sermon on the Mount teach a way of salvation? Clearly so if you read it. What role does belief in Jesus' lordship, death and resurrection play in it? Absolutely none. But if Christians are saved by faith in Christ without works, the Sermon is reduced to the secondary status of "practical advice" -- or, even worse, overturned into a Pauline demonstration that the law is impossible to follow, which is the exact opposite of Matthew's intent.

bebu

not worthy of salvation to being worthy of salvation

I don't think the issue is "worthy" here, because if anyone needs salvation s/he is inherently unworthy! If you are worthy... you don't need it! It seems to me that JWs feel that a person's spirituality (and here it means meetings and selling mags, etc.) makes him/her 'worthy' as far as they can see. (Am I right?)

The words "repent" and "believe" keep coming up throughout the NT, spoken by Jesus in all gospels, and Peter, and Paul and John. I think to repent means getting honest about our own deficiencies, and being humble. (Think about how hard this is for anyone to do! ) To believe has elements of faith and hope in the character of God--that He is, should we have revealed to us all the contexts and reasons, Good in all His dealings with us. In a funny way, repenting and believing are simply two sides of one coin: switching trust from one's self (repent) to trusting God (believe).

When one asks why s/he should believe that God is/will be benevolent and gracious toward us, the life/death/resurrection of Jesus comes into view...

...There are so many rich illustrations and facets to this whole question.

bebu

LittleToe

Standing on a little toe isn't going to get you very far, I'm afraid. All flesh is fallible.

My understanding of orthodox Christianity would be one of relationship.
All relationships have a beginning, and it affects those involved (which proceeds to explain the "works/obedience" scriptures).

I think the key to it is someplace else entirely, in the doctrine of "adoption", wherein an individual [comes to be/comes to realise that they are] a "child of God".
It is my belief that this cannot be reversed, just as you don't "un-adopt" a child.
Pivotal to this, for a JW-perspective, would be 1Cor.10:12 "Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." NWT.

I would place the focus not on the standing or falling, but the thinking. As a man thinks, so he is.

LittleToe

Steve:
A James Thomas moment coming up:
Let these words burn into your egoic consciousness: "It's not about you!".

What is a "child of God", but a shard of the Divine?
Embrace the reality/unity/family.

Jst2Lws put it well, recently (and I paraphrase with my own bias, becasue I can't find his comments), when he commented that the Christian "stepping stone" of forgiveness and acceptance by a benevolent Father-figure is often the easiest manner for a Western mind to approach the "oneness" of the Divine.

ellderwho

But what I am really trying to get at is what is required for a person to cross that threshold from not worthy of salvation to being worthy of salvation? Are there certain actions required, or is it simply a change in the state of the mind?

Neither,

Joh 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. ASV

Followed by:

Joh 6:37

All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. ASV

Just my Calvinistic .02

LittleToe

To follow on from EW, the orthodox view would be that it's got nothing to do with worth or do-gooding at all. It's that change that occurs in the mind and heart.

ozziepost

Coming to this thread for the first time I thought the question was wrong!

Salvation is not attained, it's given as a free gift. You don't do anything to get it. I reckon that's the neatest thing i've ever heard.

Remember those days of yore when any of us was only as good as our last report? Groan!!!

blondie

Good comment, ozziepost.

It is hard coming out of the WTS to shake yourself of the notion that it can be earned. That is one of the reasons I always felt like a square peg in the round hole world of the WTS trying to explain to people at the door that it was a free gift and then filling out my time report at the end of the month. The 2 things did not harmonize.

But based on this week's WT study article, the WTS is deciding who gets resurrected or not.

No time slip = no resurrection?

Blondie

stevenyc

LT

Thanks again for your explanations. I'm starting to understand, but there is a block.

When as was in Thailand I was fortunate enough to spend a few week on a beach with a swami who was teaching me a similar path.
I think it's my 'western logical brain' that’s getting in the way.

More patience is required from me, I think.
steve

Question for Christians and ex-JW: How is salvation attained?

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