Does the idea of a bodyless soul make sense? Could the 'soul' stay sane?

by IronGland 54 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Satanus
    Satanus
    How will we see? Would we just "feel" and "Think" feelings and emotions, like a dream?

    We do a lot of that right now, every day. People decide to be happy, and are happy. Many people decide to be and stay miserable, and so they are miserable. 'Course, there are many exceptions, as you metion below, but ti does happen a lot. I think that some dreams are excursions to that other dimension.

    Not being able to touch, smell and what-not? Part of our mood, after all, is directed by our physical surroundings.


    What about those with mental disabilities, caused somewhat by how their brain is either undeveloped or damaged? Since a physical cause is partially responsible for the condition of the soul, will the soul still carry that condition without the brain?

    Only until the soul fully awakes to it's new freedom and realises that it can be whatever it imagines. This is illustrated by many people who have nde's and remember them. Often their attitudes change a lot afterward. They realise that they are making/creating their lives as they go along, and so they can change them just like that, many of them.

    S

  • Confession
    Confession

    I used to wonder about this... People who are for a period of time considered dead, but are revived, sometimes claim that they have escaped their bodies, hovered above in the room and observed everything going on. This would fit the belief of a soul or spirit that lives on after death. Purportedly in this state they have taken with them their "mind." That is to say, they can somehow see and recognize their bodies on the operating table along with the medical staff.

    If this is possible, what is the explanation for a person who experiences amnesia--or some other form of memory loss? If we have a "mind" apart from that which exists in our physical brain, why does it not kick in when the brain suffers amnesia? If our physical brain cannot recall or recognize things, why can't our spiritual mind?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Confession

    If we have a "mind" apart from that which exists in our physical brain, why does it not kick in when the brain suffers amnesia? If our physical brain cannot recall or recognize things, why can't our spiritual mind?

    A lot of stuff that we forget or are not aware of conscioussly, is still there in the sunconscious. I would say that the conscious is to the subconscious what the tip of the ice berg is to the submerged part. It could be that the subconscious extends into the spirit dimension, or other dimensions. The trick to exploring this is to get the conscious mind w it's pushy all claiming ego out of the way. And so, some people use consciousness changing drugs or learn to meditate or go into trances. They are sometimes able to get glimpses. This does not apply to those who do drugs recreationally. I suspect that the same mind blocks the spiritual mind, if you want to call it that.

    S

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Our physical bodies, including our physical brains, are simply physical organisms made of the physical elements of this physical universe.

    While I am no scientist, I wish to present a thesis about this physical universe, with a view to extending this beyond the physical realm and into other levels of reality, as part of a continuum.

    In trying to understand the material universe, man uses science and technology to plummet the depths of the minutest particles that comprise what we call matter. The smallest piece of matter that can be identified and classified as a certain kind of element is referred to as the atom, and we give them names like hydrogen, oxygen, iron, sulphur, uranium. We refer to a periodic table of the elements to identify each of the known elements found in nature (and a few that are man-made). (and we are all star stuff - comprising the same elements as the stars)

    All of these elements contain smaller particles of matter, because inside each "atom" (no matter what the element) we have discovered there is a nucleus consisting of neutrons and protons around which revolve electrons in different orbitals.

    Then we learned how to smash these atoms into pieces, and in doing so, discovered the tremendous amount of energy that is released (eg. atomic bomb, hydrogen bomb). Einstein develops a formula showing the relationship and conversion of Matter to Energy and vice-versa. Also, there is the law of conservation of mass-energy which essentially says that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but is merely changed from one form to another.

    Then in the weird and wonderful world of particle accelerators, we experimented with protons and electrons by smashing them into each other, breaking them into still tinier pieces, and then recorded the tracks or trails these particles left behind. In doing so, over 200 different particles were identified, which became known as the "particle zoo". At one point we thought there was going to be no end to the number of particles that would be ultimately discovered, but things did settle down. In the end, we came to the conclusion that the most elemental particles in the universe were "Quarks" and "Leptons" (which in turn had sub-classifications such as Up, Down, Charm and Beauty).

    Inside the atom, electrons are known to jump from one orbital to another. In doing so, they release tiny packets of light energy. Nothing is lost in the equation where matter is converted to energy.

    Let us now look at Vibration and Frequency. We can take all of the various physical phenomena of the universe and classify them in terms of Wavebands within which are frequency ranges. The five physical senses are sensory apparatus we all (most) have by which we "tune in" to the various phenomena. We have ears to hear sounds, eyes to see light and objects, tongues to taste, sense of touch to feel physical objects, temperature, pressure and vibration.

    When we hear sounds, there are loud and soft (amplitude), higher and lower (frequency), etc.. We have instruments (eg. oscilloscopes) to detect and record sounds. Sound can be measured in terms of its frequency and amplitude, as well as its speed in different media (eg. air and water). Also, sound "bends" as it moves toward us and moves away from us. For exampe, as a train approaches us with its whistle blowing, the sound is increasing in pitch until it reaches us, and then as the train recedes, we hear the pitch lower. Also, the volume increases as the train approaches, and decreases as the train moves away from us. As an aside, dogs can hear sounds higher than the human ear, since their hearing apparatus is more sensitive to higher frequencies than man's.

    All of the notes of a musical scale have their own frequency. A - B - C - D - E - F - G - A = ONE OCTAVE. The first A note is exactly one octave lower than the next A note. When we hear the two notes, they sound the same, except we can tell that one note sounds higher than the other. They are separated by "frequency". We also call this "sound energy". While I do not recall which note has what frequency, I can tell you that scientists are able to precisely measure the frequency of each note, which is readily available in the literature.

    The point I am making here is that "sound energy" has Vibration and/or Frequency.

    If we examine the phenomenon of light energy, we will discover all of the colours of the rainbow, and a couple more like ultra-violet and infra-red. Each of the "colours" also have their own frequency. White light comprises all of the colours combined. If we take a prism, we note that the colours are dispersed or separated in a specific order, with the "slowest" colour bending thru the glass prism the most, and the "fastest" colour bending the least as it passes thru the glass medium.

    In short, "light energy" has Vibration and/or Frequency.

    There are also a number of other "rays" that man has detected such as "X-Rays, Gamma Rays emanating from space. These are beyond the visible light spectrum, but nevertheless have their own respective wavebands of frequencies.

    Then we have brainwaves- where thoughts and dreams occur. We use EEG's to measure our brainwave patterns. These are, of course, simply man-made electronic devices which interpret the patterns of brain activities on a graph. Nevertheless, brainwaves have Vibration and/or Frequency.

    We could go thru all of the physical phenomenon of the Universe and see that all is Vibration and/or Frequency. To use a crude analogy, if we started with a Vibration of one cycle per second, and then moved up the Universal Spectrum to infinity, we would ultimately pass thru all of the phenomena of the physical universe.

    All is Vibration, and all matter at the atomic and sub-atomic levels can be demonstrated to have energy and vibratory fields. Let's call this the "dance of the electrons".

    So what, and where does this leave us? Let us assume that this Universe started with the Big Bang, and things progressed thru time (say 12 to 15 billion years ago) to where things are today. Let us also concede that Evolution and Natural Selection was the process by which all life on planet earth came into being, evolving into what we see today, allowing for extinctions and mutations, etc. And here we are now, trying to make sense of this Universe and who or what we are.

    Now we already know that there are energies out there that our five physical senses are simply incapable of detecting. It wasn't until certain technologies were developed, as extensions to our senory apparatus, that we discovered a whole lot more going on in this Universe than we could have imagined. (eg. Telescopes, Microscopes, Oscilloscopes, Magnetometers, Seismographs, etc.).

    So what would be so strange as to contemplate the possibility that there may be phenomena "out there" that are beyond this "physical vibratory plane" that we call the "observable universe"? What if this physical universe operates within a certain "Waveband of Frequencies", beyond which we could say that "something" is no longer part of this physical dimension, but rather is at another level or "dimension"? It's just that we have not scientifically discovered them yet. And yet, the next level or dimension is simply part of an infinite continuum into higher and still higher dimensions or planes.

    Is this all some mythical concoction cooked up in my imagination? No, I did not dream this up. This is all a part of "ancient wisdom" which I have delved into for the past number of years. It came from individuals who went before us all, and delved deep within themselves, and discovered these other planes or dimensions. They are right here, right now, in all and thru all. They are not "out there" or "somewhere else". By way of analogy, in one sense, they are like the layers of an onion, with each layer separate from the other, yet are all part of the one onion. On the other hand, this is not a true representation because these dimensions are not separated by layers, but rather by "vibratory levels or planes". It would be like laser beams aimed at you, each one at a different vibratory frequency, each one passing thru you at the same space and time. Because of the respective frequency levels of each dimension are separate from each other, they don't run into or collide with each other. Rather, each one is superimposed upon the other, so that we all exist within the framework of a multi-dimensional Universe.

    And just like the multi-dimensional universe, we are all multi-dimensional beings, with "bodies" or "forms" that exist in and resonate with each of these dimensional levels. And so in "ancient wisdom" we learn about the Physical Plane, the Astral Plane, the Causal Plane, the Mental Place and the Soul Plane, and we have "bodies" for each level that concurrently coexist.

    The reason we are not aware of these levels is because we focus all our time and energy on the physical plane, and try to see everything from only that level. Therefore, nothing else is possible. If I cannot see, hear, feel, touch or taste it, it does not exist! And you would be right, as far as you've taken it. But that does not mean or prove that that is all there is.

    So now, how are we to even consider the possibility for other levels or dimensions to exist. Certainly not by "scientific method", at least at this stage of mankind's development. Here is where I would take the approach of asking the question "Who, if any, have ever experienced anything from these so-called "other dimensions"?. That is where I ran into a number of individuals in history who claim to have experienced things from the "beyond", and who now want to share it with their fellow man.

    These individuals all teach us to turn within ourselves to find the answers we are looking for. And I don't mean to suggest we have to get all religious or contorted about it, and struggle and agonize, and get hung up on mantras and certain postures,etc. This is more about "tuning in" like we do to a radio or television station. It is about "awareness" or "consciousness", and as James Thomas says on other threads "even being aware of the awareness". It is this inner "awareness" that will lead us into a knowledge and understanding of who and what we really are.

    (Now, I am not going to try and point you to any particular enlightened being or organization, as I have no intention of trying to sell or convert anyone to a certain point of view. I will, however, share what my view is. My purpose in doing this is merely to suggest another approach, but it is up to you to explore things and find out for yourself, or else simply ignore it.)

    To this end, I have decided to have an open mind in terms of paranormal phenomena, treating them as possible indicators of what may be going on at or emanating from "other dimensions", but which happen to be manifesting on this "physical plane". I include in this things like esp, mental telepathy, telekinesis, (some) miracles, (some) ufo's, crop circles, poltergeists, past life "recollections", out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, and a number of others. I will be the first to admit there are a lot of weirdos and hoaxsters in these areas. On the other hand, it is possible to separate the B.S. stories and eliminate them, after which there remain a number of case studies which cannot simply be explained away. Here is where I have found that most skeptics have been all too ready to be dismiss anything and everything that even hints of the paranormal, being unwilling to even concede the possibility for any of these things to have a basis in reality. In such instances, while I respect the right of the skeptic to reject whatever, I will take the position that we simply agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

    For those of you who may be willing to become serious students or investigators of the paranormal, I would say that you will discover many possibilities beyond what the scientists are telling us. And I would also say that it is perfectly OK to be agnostic about a subject, since there is nothing wrong with taking the position "I don't know, so I haven't made up my mind yet to take a stand one way or the other."

    So now, as to the question "Does the idea of a bodiless soul make sense?" and "Could the 'soul' stay sane?" my answer is "Yes, to both." But you have to experience things from a different level or vantage point to appreciate how this is possible.

    Rod P.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I don't have much to add to what Satanus and RodP have stated, though I will add a point about dreams.

    We're told that we dream for a mere fraction of time, in which we might experience a great deal, accompanied with a variety of emotions. Are these "feelings" merely attributed to hormones and chemicals? I would suggest not.

    Therein may be part of your answer, and I would go further, to posit that we are more than the sum of our molecules.

  • gumby
    gumby

    Well...........a..........I'm just gonna look up the answer in one of the volumes cuz you guys are just guessin.

    Gumdub

  • Narkissos
  • sonnyboy
    sonnyboy
    It came from individuals who went before us all, and delved deep within themselves, and discovered these other planes or dimensions.

    Do you think that certain psychadellic drugs can allow a person to see into other dimensions? People throughout history have experienced nearly identical visions through the use of salvia, pilocybe mushrooms, and mescaline-producing plants.

    As a teenager I went on a few of these "journeys" through psilocybe cubensis (anything to escape the JW 'reality'). Regardless of what psilocybin actually does to the brain to induce visions, it was an extremely spiritual event, and it was centered around a specific being who seemed to exist in another plane. The being wouldn't speak in words, but tell me things through means that I can't explain. I've since heard many other stories that are nearly identical.

    Maybe it was just a wild trip and there are no 'spiritual' beings among us, but it definitely had an impact on the way I view the world.

  • Pole
    Pole
    Does the idea of a bodyless soul make sense? Could the 'soul' stay sane?


    Well, at least it makes no sense trying to seriously conceptualize something that doesn't belong to the physical world that we belong to.

    What about those with mental disabilities, caused somewhat by how their brain is either undeveloped or damaged? Since a physical cause is partially responsible for the condition of the soul, will the soul still carry that condition without the brain?



    Right on. I gave up the concept of soul as an intellectual hoax when reading about stroke patients and the kind of disabilities they get depending on which part of their brains suffered in the stroke.
    For instance there is a part of the brain called the "left angular gyrus" which seems to be responsible for decoding metaphors. Patients who had a stroke in this area had a peculiar cognitive disability:

    When asked, for example, about the meaning behind 'All that glitters is not gold', one person with a deficient left angular gyrus said, "The deep meaning is that we have to be very careful when buying jewellery."


    So why am I mentioning this? Because I believe in a few decades we will have identified (that doesn't mean we will know how exactly they work) different parts of the brain as physically responsible for the different attributes and faculties of what we have called our soul and what we have separated from the body for so many centuries. You can already stimulate certain parts of the brain to rekindle religoius feelings in die-hard atheists.
    And if you can lose some capabilities of "the soul" in a stroke, then it means you can do harm to the immortal soul by taking a physical action.
    Let's face it: we are material. All this soul-talk is a smoke-screen that helps some cope with the obscure reality lurking behind the drug of consciousness.
    Pole

  • doofdaddy
    doofdaddy

    Like Sonny I too took hallucinagens. DMT specifically. As noted on another thread, I went thru my own death and went into a world of timelessness and no physical sensation, just observation. This had me enthralled, but later experience and reading indicates to me that this is just another mind/chemical experience.

    Apparantly, Gautama the Buddha originally taught that when we die that's it. I tend to agree. The rest is just ego.

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